From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bastien Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: CommonLisp namespace system (was Re: adding namespaces to emacs-lisp (better elisp?)) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 13:43:29 +0200 Message-ID: <87ppu4dy8u.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> References: <874nbh2z3y.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> <87y58t1cih.fsf_-_@ferrier.me.uk> <87zjt9rwh7.fsf@fleche.redhat.com> <85aa2168-3fd2-42f0-b03f-74c3bc258545@default> <87ppu516qn.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> <87a9l81kvl.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1374925414 7044 80.91.229.3 (27 Jul 2013 11:43:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 11:43:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: tromey@redhat.com, rms@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Nic Ferrier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 27 13:43:35 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V32uM-0000wY-Nt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 13:43:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56674 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V32uM-0006FU-C6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 07:43:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52836) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V32uJ-0006DI-D7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 07:43:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V32uH-0000dD-OF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 07:43:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]:45014) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V32uH-0000d5-JH; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 07:43:29 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id z12so3593952wgg.10 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 04:43:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=f/AQ6X7SnmERd/n+OXmivhbTgQEs6UOfY1SJ7SkkHaw=; b=oeyywtRvS+eLyG8TPdNSncuHaxo5D2MY583TVmSugClGbbn2+xU2PSWeJQsriZg5C2 lpOq7vYhRfLvYeriaaugGjuzEE7JOZCx1kRY2GhTmRO1iI8pSLlYpK8nsZkTZfRhc/dm 2l6BTuJYc7ptSv9F/4kpMzrEzSNOJbUfOOQxDbuBRjaihyFJJ5RkJDV48ru/ogrWV5dG RMb4MKW50cfBiv2yqN1hItbLNkkknqhYOm5M3XpcNN79Ce/AbQ4UEtikS/0m8zgXhxkM n095H6p1syfLCgFhqvwrTYfjXFe53Y1G0iWRKdLu5UlUt47lvGd1NdGg/Gt8vTR0Sbmz UWRA== X-Received: by 10.194.121.65 with SMTP id li1mr39038453wjb.24.1374925408737; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 04:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from bzg.localdomain (mar75-2-81-56-68-112.fbx.proxad.net. [81.56.68.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id em1sm3399581wib.3.2013.07.27.04.43.26 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Jul 2013 04:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by bzg.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 434841C21875; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 13:43:29 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87a9l81kvl.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> (Nic Ferrier's message of "Sat, 27 Jul 2013 09:13:02 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:162196 Archived-At: Hi Nic and all, Nic Ferrier writes: > They want to avoid having long names for symbols or name clashes for > symbols. You can have namespaces clashes too, it's purely conventional. So to me the only complaint is about symbols' length. But is that really such a big problem? The common practice for Emacs Lisp seems to favor explicit and long names over terse and hard-to-decipher ones. I guess the length of the symbols is more due to this (good) practice than to the length of prefixes. Personally, what I really like in Emacs Lisp is precisely the fact that variables and functions names are available from the same and unique global space. When I read "org-x", it immediately tells me where the variable is from, and I can use it as such from anywhere. This is an advantage in terms of both discoverability and readability. Maybe C-h a and friends can be clever enough to look up by taking a namespace into account, but human-reading of the name of a variable will not always be able to do this. To sum up: I like the visual contextual clue you get with the prefix and I'm not sure the length of symbols in *Elisp* is such a problem. 2 cts of course, -- Bastien