From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Apologia for bzr Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:27:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87ppo824lo.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20140102095347.6834E381D0C@snark.thyrsus.com> <87fvp6bdd9.fsf_-_@ktab.red-bean.com> <83wqiixqbb.fsf@gnu.org> <20140102172804.GB13245@thyrsus.com> <83vby2xo6x.fsf@gnu.org> <20140102183432.GB13506@thyrsus.com> <83sit6xgfg.fsf@gnu.org> <8761q18kni.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.org> <838uuxxsxu.fsf@gnu.org> <83wqihw42f.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1388780858 4379 80.91.229.3 (3 Jan 2014 20:27:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:27:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, kfogel@red-bean.com, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, tsdh@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 03 21:27:44 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VzBLI-0006n7-Mu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:27:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51702 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzBLI-0001an-5L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:27:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45786) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzBLD-0001Wq-5c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:27:36 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzBLB-0005Me-Ql for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:27:35 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:33777) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzBLB-0005Ma-Mt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:27:33 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40953 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzBL9-0007Gn-Qs; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:27:32 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E4C2E93F9; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 21:27:31 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 03 Jan 2014 14:49:21 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167226 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: > Using Git won't magically give us any new blood. But using Bzr is > a hindrance. A few years ago, users seemed happy to use Hg for one > project, Git for another, DaRCS for yet a third, etc.... > > Nowadays most users complain when they have to learn another tool. Nowadays most users complain when they have to learn. Nowadays most users complain. But that's, again, a side consideration. I am currently involved with LilyPond, a music typesetter and working as a fulltime programmer on it. So I am doing plenty of additions. Like one sees with many significant contributors and/or project leaders, I=A0spend so much working _on_ LilyPond that I have factually ceased working _with_ LilyPond. So quite a few significant usability improvements happen when I a) on a rare occasion actually have to transcribe some music piece and get appalled at how weird something is b) try explaining on a mailing list how to do some programming or transcribing task with LilyPond and get appalled at how weird something is. c) try writing documentation for some problem and get appalled at how weird... You get the point. Often the weirdness is decades old and people just got used to it. Now in this discussion here, for better or worse, there is the somewhat handwavingly made contention "everybody uses Git nowadays". Now if Emacs is supposed to be useful to people, that means it should support Git well. If we stipulate that the main task several powerful Emacs contributors are using Emacs for is, well, working on Emacs, then their focus to get weird things or things not matching the tool well under control will be on the version control system they are using in connection with working on Emacs. So if we don't have a particular axe to grind for a particular version control system, it makes sense moving Emacs to what is used most often, just so that the friction between Emacs' and PVCS' keybindings, commands, documentation, workflow, concepts will be most obvious when working with the most prevalent version control system. When Eli says "working with Git under Windows is a pain", then it may be nice to have as the ultimate goal the addition "unless you are working with it from within Emacs". Emacs is really great for working on Texinfo, Lisp, and C files. And part of the reason it has strong points there is that these are the languages involved with working on Emacs itself. --=20 David Kastrup