From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:46:49 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87pnxl7n9i.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm> <770f48a8-664a-40ae-8e03-19f6aad248b6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536581572 30810 195.159.176.226 (10 Sep 2018 12:12:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 12:12:52 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, Joost Kremers , Noam Postavsky , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 10 14:12:47 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL3a-0007qU-Jw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:12:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51351 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL5h-0004ig-5Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:14:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48478) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL2q-00010Z-Pf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:11:58 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzKyz-0002Au-1h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:07:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::12]:15867) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzKyy-00028Y-QQ; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:07:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536581275; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=5a5LYwxfT/7ee2SZNuScmjFb9ektLKn0Xhga1Wd/U8s=; b=VEyHQDFK2s8HlDNEOkQScFhBtvDEB/F5hnE9MrN49ibxQCN8G2gu/YJJYOyHYsQqdT V1ndpyU44m/bVCbTHKiP4Rqtl2IGBQod78C2qvxx7bLOw5iVytD80fDWGg9aUpsTY3KL wvCMEyaQv6vl8yXOy+jKWByjZbCtcUreKcSc0LTWqI4zAxPaOSsPXmx3NJq4T/ihtJnL UOq0IRXwoUACicm2wZlOQEWWSGF+VscMoOk/hmrZV93o1ZjU4RsPzHa2Ai2KBjxzGXt+ n4pQb1qkKw0i7PJ0+46hBCDB6bzHShNSwUJO1lKkWgs1MYd+cDfj7JxZMKbkQzzQcXgl bA7Q== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u8AC7gGs8 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:07:42 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fzKyk-0000xL-9Q; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:07:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: <770f48a8-664a-40ae-8e03-19f6aad248b6@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 9 Sep 2018 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT)") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229612 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > [...] > The only argument I saw here (unless I've forgotten already) > in favor of it being off (by default or not) is that when it is on > a user (new or old) can too easily accidentally delete text. > > (Some added "irretrievably", but I haven't seen that claim > supported yet.) This is a misunderstanding. You need to distinguish between the selection itself and the contents of the selection. The contents usually aren't likely to get lost forever. The selection itself *is* lost irretrievably when you make a movement without holding the key (like Shift or Ctrl) you need to press to select. So far, I've never seen a software that had an undo for this, and it has annoyed me many times. It's another example for the design flaw of making a mistake worse rather than protecting the user from it. > [...] > So again, what's the advantage to it being off? (It's not a > rhetorical question.) Is there really some useful "option" > that its being off offers? Does that give you additional > choice or control? That depends on what you consider as "off". Under "normal" circumstances, "off" seems to mean that backspace deletes a region only when it is active, and that other keystrokes tend to deactivate an active region before they insert themselves into the buffer. That means it's not really off. If it was really off, backspace would not delete a region when it's active, and other keystrokes would neither deactivate an active region, nor insert themselves into the buffer, but they would make Emacs beep. So "really off" would give the user maximum protection against mistakes that could otherwise lead to loosing the selection itself, its contents or both. That is an advantage. The other advantage is that users may be glad to see a behaviour which they end up finding better and might have never discovered if it wasn't the default. When more users appreciate it, they might urge the developers of other software to implement something similar. In any case, the whole concept of regions could use an overhaul.