From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 19:35:56 -0500 Message-ID: <87pnayw2dv.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <06bcddd4-6991-e4f7-e944-93de14af263d@yandex.ru> <87h7wjsd8o.fsf@red-bean.com> <20897f01-122d-7f91-eac2-70f5ad75796f@yandex.ru> <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> <874ksglvsd.fsf@red-bean.com> <768d3caa-8eed-457b-90e1-143d18020201@default> <875zcqxord.fsf@red-bean.com> <9204f01e-5ef1-4f9d-986c-e83199abe1cd@default> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="43380"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, andreas.roehler@online.de, Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 21 02:36:54 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbZCf-000BBR-9o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 02:36:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44196 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbZCe-0000S1-D3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 20:36:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38364) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbZBs-0008IJ-EJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 20:36:04 -0400 Original-Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:49872) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbZBq-0007vk-RD; Wed, 20 May 2020 20:36:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=gCRFL3NCDCHqreR7FE/9EwZ25C3cU+OXm0ORjPm+zWU=; t=1590021361; x=1591230961; b=MIsNx2r5Eiw9OEray3VcUpbuA4A+6CtorPxqDBVY6e9FndZbLvU2eQjgp8Bb+f/xLMSGAH20Po RQoZqlRtVNI2qje/TcBwWGDn+SddeNYgLelw1aWj1xfH72DuOrFhhX2VdaT4W5nJ9rQtlZRSXho2b AisigVnZlYz+qVDe42vH3yH0jroT8yCCnhButh6GxhGviTjVlW9KvEbeY6SRKhci7RD2XHsoM7Co1 tW0CPx5LwFBCd19/H2iYBZF/k4+9D/oJJ/EpfvADi4LoDfrww3kLep16nEiO3MDCynn9FFeuKiK5b xOvISuIfBUy38Xw7JSHzXabpA4O/lSEQwNbww==; Original-Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:36904 helo=floss) by newsp.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbZBl-0003l7-5r; Thu, 21 May 2020 00:35:57 +0000 In-Reply-To: <9204f01e-5ef1-4f9d-986c-e83199abe1cd@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 20 May 2020 15:35:17 -0700 (PDT)") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.79.25.59; envelope-from=kfogel@red-bean.com; helo=newsp.red-bean.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/20 20:36:01 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251132 Archived-At: On 20 May 2020, Drew Adams wrote: >Yes, I see now that you more likely meant that by "it". >(It could have meant learning stick or learning that >driving stick will ultimately pay off.) > >I'd say that many who end up being Emacs users (in the >sense you intend) were _not_ convinced by others ahead >of time as you suggest - though many others were, no >doubt. > >And I'd say that some of those who weren't thus >convinced have likely gotten their "Emacs user" bona >fides at least partly thanks to the manuals and the >help UI ("ask Emacs"). > >IOW, I agree with your characterization of most Emacs >users (i.e., other than any drive-by tasters who don't >stay). And I agree with your claim that having a >mentor over the shoulder can be very helpful. And I >agree with your guess that many who do stay become >convinced to try it and stick with it because of a >payoff promised from outside Emacs itself (manuals). >I disagree, if you also claim that _only_ those with >mentors, or those convinced by others to stick it out, >end up as users. > >The point that users who stick around and really use >Emacs are the prime target of its "user friendliness" >is one I agree with. (Not the only target, but the >main one.) And the things you say help create Emacs >users do in fact help, and they can even sometimes be >determinant. But it's not the case, IMO, that those >things are required, to become an Emacs user (again, >in your sense). Agreed -- I don't think that's absolutely required. I do think that a new user stands a much greater chance of becoming a long-term, invested user when persuaded (and ideally helped) by others who have already made that investment successfully. But it's not required. Most of the long-term Emacs users I know personally seem to have been socialized into it, but it could be the case that there's some selection bias among the Emacs users I know! Best regards, -Karl