From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Philip K." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Repurpose one key and reserve it for third-party packages Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 19:34:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87pn16a1xn.fsf@posteo.net> References: <7ef75c33936136eb3a20@heytings.org> <8735y56naf.fsf@posteo.net> <8ed9b43502ae9a36b057@heytings.org> <87tuqk6d9d.fsf@posteo.net> <3966473cc1ab9f104724@heytings.org> <87o8gr1oom.fsf@posteo.net> <87lfbubthl.fsf@posteo.net> <87tuqia845.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2816"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 11 19:37:39 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAGqR-0000dy-4P for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 19:37:39 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57862 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAGqQ-0001AN-5l for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:37:38 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42046) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAGnV-0006vy-TH for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:34:38 -0500 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:57641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAGnQ-0003Q5-SL for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:34:37 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0569E16005F for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 19:34:29 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1613068470; bh=k33kg9hVxmv0kLlYeoa+Wb9QYqbk4mbrFGgDw2/Z/N4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=BjkspRQbbrIh0pSof6j3KYkQ+HUiW/1ThhbW+0A7UqZTOGaZk0qM8o4p81VQkAiTq 3VVP1NcjWo59aadip2N9vAznkjN6wCCvcrLNdejAtc6ng2Qk075wYENu6MDXJkI74O GcmjTfEk+froAMY2U/M4ARLcXTMYFrp4CGVko7vBR4z1gWQLj16w8re/ZLumkWYE7V NPhGALKNEaEyV29U4fnmMuLc3LUDUaqRA+wT8dGDdCSuRv6VBL6x7I+pUIEkmSrfwG aKNr2NbleVx/yr55JcNf75Ei2s3e4dtl1zZtBRl2aBCGYemQ6CooZ3OKJrs++VEfcn j28rW8erMD7UA== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Dc4zT1mNtz6tmH; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 19:34:29 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:48:13 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127823 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gregory Heytings writes: > No, with one control key you have all characters (not just letters, > also digits and symbols), plus all C-something, plus all M-something, > plus C-M-something. With one control key and its corrsponding meta > key you multiply that number by two. Ah ok, I get what you mean. Does it really make that much of a difference? I'm not sure how many packages you are expecting would add default bindings (or how conflict resolution should happen), but do you really need more than 26? How many packages do people install, where an interactive command is the entry-point _and_ has to be bound to a key by default? In my case it is only Magit, and that's bound to C-c g without any problems. Also, here's another annoyance: What if I don't like the default binding? How would you expect this to be modified? Would a package constantly try to modify my config to add what it thinks should be the right key to trigger the right command? >>> It's what most users expect. apt install elpa-magit, C-x g, and >>> voil=C3=A0: Magit works. >> >> How do you come to this conclusion? > > It's what Magit (and other similar packages) do. The presupposition > of the proposal is that such packages know their users. I only know of Magit that does it, and as I have said before, I think it is a mistake and unfriendly. But that still doesn't answer the question. Why do you think that users expect it -- not the image that magit has it it's users. >>> BTW, Emacs already does "behind-your-back" customizations, and >>> doesn't ask you any questions for them. It provides sensible >>> defaults, which work in most cases, and which you can change if >>> need be. >> >> I don't get your point here. Are you saying "default Emacs" is a >> "behind-your-back customization"? > > No, I mean that installing packages already does some > "behind-your-back" customizations, for example by modifying > auto-mode-alist. There are cases when such modifications do not what > some particular user would expect; as someone mentioned, a package for > Perl who would override the setting of a package for Prolog because > both use the .pl extension. Yes, and as I have said in a previous message (or in my article for that matter), I think it is problematic. Lucky the situation with auto-mode-alist is more relaxed, since auto-mode-list benefits from the fact that file extensions tend not to conflict with one-another (survival of the more popular). Also, if I am not mistaken, packages that manipulate auto-mode-alist add their entry to the end of the list, so that if a user wants to interpret .pl as whatever they want, they won't interfere. This kind of a respect for the user would have to be necessary for what you propose, so that an implicit Emacs etiquette is preserved. =2D-=20 Philip K. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCAAdFiEEbW+YL3e0aNnYosjIGB9bla4wszYFAmAleLQACgkQGB9bla4w sza71AwApiPrf6+iKwWx13v0CdZRo59JwFtUSlMFA1xZJFS39a0wv3bCCAol+waE 0Yg+XsCHlTWE9B4cipjlMhJsh6QJUaFSXEYeKkvreR1n9ubYxZ7ey5y3m0SOZh05 7nwDJCvcTNms1YIPOeHc353JWFL1iuxItZJ+hvwN5HSKF3x6k7wzdyVcuYUMpUq0 ohFYsEw/6UziAYQ1euBSKCqNutIwsaADO8wF8H5uovF+hEP435EH0EyV4+xHz0sF 7VqWkcCBnnx5VuealLRTJWJmzjqCORb/Wh6ueuzV/BOUWblqUfa1WQTFjdpefuNK +HjUUJ2Qombv/APjf45/K52l3YtWEOozq2IlIhUDqYQarvUqfrmi3a6PyB+65cX6 cU7dxLk6zI/mNLVXoToRnw1AydfnpgjmMuKuQE6YoKX8eYV4oZe8jUHEwLPzcQZf k206yrznNiX/mY9Cv5XcpH4Nky9EVCZSXgRchRKK7hDyXpwoYqfrzShl9NJxK5JZ 5EYgeclx =M4I3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--