From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, etc)? (was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:28:13 +0100 Message-ID: <87pmssd8j6.fsf@gmail.com> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11434"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Phil Sainty , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 28 17:30:02 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVF3S-0002lb-5P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:30:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57236 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVF3Q-0003BH-Fd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:30:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50476) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVF1o-0001i7-Gv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:28:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]:39546) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVF1j-0000R3-Ix; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:28:20 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id d26so1171601wrb.6; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:28:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9ryUd3mjwdageKWnocC691TzUHUQqZ2scKf3mDAKvgc=; b=VPDFOzVWRqU4WlyJdAIz5qFCP4VOtHjEZaIDtkf4Abjo+6t1lzXrV2qG2GlmVjt3vt vlXKpXuspQ9OubY7hkl2j+snHyTanGt2mmXz3fB9m2AgD+I5Lg/MlRS3G5luoEqunFhn 9oug32AfMiR9LtrJLpFAWU5gmXIUperYqNc6CvYcVAXpOxRfNaPujXsaFrLHR4iixdJy KxQR8SsoFldnYk94dCqUZVOg/ntGyualIN+dtOpoiL7pGzePn73ok9+jj2UV2mCAMLES 7s037MZSJ4noigfJd774ctY19OJMymaLVnOBGegWyOQmOGG5V0ENSw5SHYw0bvwtVx/4 dX/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9ryUd3mjwdageKWnocC691TzUHUQqZ2scKf3mDAKvgc=; b=rdFxxQSFDsiSwgTqoJ2fAxbqie4asSzsgBXrqaLnsQFpQZ6EcbPO+IAzo72Spsbdrg 9b6jag2GfpQsDjlOPxJnsfnJnMY3YrVxZId0OwXayVUMVEvtrx+3Vu0o7APsd2eHGjcF BX1BewLtdBFM13Jy9ds0Jf/TLoMQFmZRKka4qEMZRylxWZaYIJNwizKHGDQ3KSsNgpP6 IKQm8oLWIgQmj188HS4Mgzztg1TXRpKGUHuMKYIb1G4rx0oa5u+TUO9q4aTPv1pz8kFe zav9lt+auyWayFhIEPKHvXNqYB4Frk4CpITnCfhOVLqrkK493bx4olS5VmHNaD26Rr/5 2aYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324auvFSkpf0kWsD6vO51fB410RSZu+jHuMyQyBmZ4TXpCTbizR 1YlOv6CZtnsd1DC4NK/pgyjALxiSqb0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWuVk/mf2nVhSzpc3Cd3Wp0lirzTeVeIfXNAUK8vJOptuHpiwhZQO/4HEGPYZxWeCtCZoA1w== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f550:: with SMTP id j16mr475306wrp.41.1632842893379; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from krug (a83-132-177-247.cpe.netcabo.pt. [83.132.177.247]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x5sm3811517wmk.32.2021.09.28.08.28.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:28:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:40:05 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42a; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -1 X-Spam_score: -0.2 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.2 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275702 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: > It shouldn't be very hard [IOW, I encourage some of the readers here to > go out and do it] to refine/extend the `find-function-regexp-alist` > mechanism so that `M-.` jumps directly to the actual `:constructor` > thingy or to the actual field corresponding to an accessor. Regexps.... Ugh. Shouldn't we invest in a proper macro-expanding and source-tracking reader? I've recently some work for a Common Lisp annotation-based stepper that correlates each evaluated form with a source position. I built a working system and published a paper. Is there interest in such a deeper Lisp introspection features for Emacs? >>> Long names being "tedious" (quoting the new info manual) to read >>> and write seems like an insufficient reason, IMHO. > As a researcher in programming languages, I tend to take it for granted > that "syntax doesn't matter", but in reality details of syntax have > enormous impacts on how languages are used and perceived, Yes, when you're transferring programs between two well-behaved robotic entities, syntax doesn't matter. But when human's squishy matter is interacting with them (and we do that a lot, unfortunately), it matters. Jo=C3=A3o "You think you have a problem, you use a regexp...." :-)