bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Ergus via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Hi:

When translate-upper-case-key-bindings is nil; the shift-arrow selection
does not work

emacs -Q
M-: (setq translate-upper-case-key-bindings nil)
S-<right>  // says it is not bound... somehow expected.

M-: (keymap-global-set "S-<right>" #'right-char)
S-<right>  // Now moves point but with no selection

I don't know where/how emacs recognizes the Shift in this case, but
somehow it is not working

Best,



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bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 19:26:35 +0100
> From:  Ergus via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> When translate-upper-case-key-bindings is nil; the shift-arrow selection
> does not work
> 
> emacs -Q
> M-: (setq translate-upper-case-key-bindings nil)
> S-<right>  // says it is not bound... somehow expected.
> 
> M-: (keymap-global-set "S-<right>" #'right-char)
> S-<right>  // Now moves point but with no selection
> 
> I don't know where/how emacs recognizes the Shift in this case, but
> somehow it is not working

It sounds like it cannot work in that case, because shift-select
_requires_ that a key was shift-translated, and setting
translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil disables that translation.

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:18:11 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:

    >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 19:26:35 +0100
    >> From:  Ergus via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
    >> the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
    >> 
    >> When translate-upper-case-key-bindings is nil; the shift-arrow selection
    >> does not work
    >> 
    >> emacs -Q
    >> M-: (setq translate-upper-case-key-bindings nil)
    >> S-<right>  // says it is not bound... somehow expected.
    >> 
    >> M-: (keymap-global-set "S-<right>" #'right-char)
    >> S-<right>  // Now moves point but with no selection
    >> 
    >> I don't know where/how emacs recognizes the Shift in this case, but
    >> somehow it is not working

    Eli> It sounds like it cannot work in that case, because shift-select
    Eli> _requires_ that a key was shift-translated, and setting
    Eli> translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil disables that translation.

The docstring says:
"If non-nil, interpret upper case keys as lower case (when applicable)."

which strongly implies that this only applies to letters, not keys
like <right>

Robert
-- 

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
> Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:54:19 +0100
> 
>     Eli> It sounds like it cannot work in that case, because shift-select
>     Eli> _requires_ that a key was shift-translated, and setting
>     Eli> translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil disables that translation.
> 
> The docstring says:
> "If non-nil, interpret upper case keys as lower case (when applicable)."
> 
> which strongly implies that this only applies to letters, not keys
> like <right>

That's a wrong impression, the translation applies to all the keys.

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
> Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:54:19 +0100
> 
>     Eli> It sounds like it cannot work in that case, because shift-select
>     Eli> _requires_ that a key was shift-translated, and setting
>     Eli> translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil disables that translation.
> 
> The docstring says:
> "If non-nil, interpret upper case keys as lower case (when applicable)."
> 
> which strongly implies that this only applies to letters, not keys
> like <right>

That's not the implementation, though.  And I'm not sure applying it
only to letters would make sense.

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:38:39 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:

    >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
    >> Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
    >> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:54:19 +0100
    >> 
    Eli> It sounds like it cannot work in that case, because shift-select
    Eli> _requires_ that a key was shift-translated, and setting
    Eli> translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil disables that translation.
    >> 
    >> The docstring says:
    >> "If non-nil, interpret upper case keys as lower case (when applicable)."
    >> 
    >> which strongly implies that this only applies to letters, not keys
    >> like <right>

    Eli> That's a wrong impression, the translation applies to all the keys.

Yes, it does, but itʼs unexpected (to me at least), that setting
`translate-upper-case-key-bindings' to nil has the effect of disabling
that translation. Iʼd expect to see that side effect described in the
docstring, but that only talks about upper<->lower case mapping.

Robert
-- 

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:40:29 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:

    >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
    >> Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
    >> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:54:19 +0100
    >> 
    Eli> It sounds like it cannot work in that case, because shift-select
    Eli> _requires_ that a key was shift-translated, and setting
    Eli> translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil disables that translation.
    >> 
    >> The docstring says:
    >> "If non-nil, interpret upper case keys as lower case (when applicable)."
    >> 
    >> which strongly implies that this only applies to letters, not keys
    >> like <right>

    Eli> That's not the implementation, though.  And I'm not sure applying it
    Eli> only to letters would make sense.

Why not? non-letters donʼt have a case, they only have a potential
Shift modifier.

Robert
-- 

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
> Cc: spacibba@aol.com,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:21:23 +0100
> 
> >>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:40:29 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:
> 
>     >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
>     >> Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
>     >> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:54:19 +0100
>     >> 
>     Eli> It sounds like it cannot work in that case, because shift-select
>     Eli> _requires_ that a key was shift-translated, and setting
>     Eli> translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil disables that translation.
>     >> 
>     >> The docstring says:
>     >> "If non-nil, interpret upper case keys as lower case (when applicable)."
>     >> 
>     >> which strongly implies that this only applies to letters, not keys
>     >> like <right>
> 
>     Eli> That's not the implementation, though.  And I'm not sure applying it
>     Eli> only to letters would make sense.
> 
> Why not?

Because people will probably  want it applied to any key.  There's
nothing special about letters, except that "upper-case" implicitly
refers to letters.

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:39:28 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:
    >> Why not?

    Eli> Because people will probably  want it applied to any key.  There's
    Eli> nothing special about letters, except that "upper-case" implicitly
    Eli> refers to letters.

Let's start again:

Currently, S-<right> produces S-<right>, but is translated to <right>,
and C-S-a is translated to C-a

If you set translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil, then S-<right>
produces S-<right>, and C-S-a produces C-S-a

So the effect is as if the option were called
'translate-shift-bindings', but that effect is not called out
anywhere.

So either we fix the behaviour, or the documentation. Would it be that
hard to restrict this to something like [a-z] or !function key? Or we
could always add yet-another-user-option.

Robert
-- 

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
> Cc: spacibba@aol.com,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 11:19:33 +0100
> 
> >>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:39:28 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:
>     >> Why not?
> 
>     Eli> Because people will probably  want it applied to any key.  There's
>     Eli> nothing special about letters, except that "upper-case" implicitly
>     Eli> refers to letters.
> 
> Let's start again:
> 
> Currently, S-<right> produces S-<right>, but is translated to <right>,
> and C-S-a is translated to C-a
> 
> If you set translate-upper-case-key-bindings to nil, then S-<right>
> produces S-<right>, and C-S-a produces C-S-a
> 
> So the effect is as if the option were called
> 'translate-shift-bindings', but that effect is not called out
> anywhere.
> 
> So either we fix the behaviour, or the documentation. Would it be that
> hard to restrict this to something like [a-z] or !function key? Or we
> could always add yet-another-user-option.

My point was that the behavior is probably okay, and the documentation
should be amended if it could confuse.

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 14:29:56 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:

    >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
    >> So either we fix the behaviour, or the documentation. Would it be that
    >> hard to restrict this to something like [a-z] or !function key? Or we
    >> could always add yet-another-user-option.

    Eli> My point was that the behavior is probably okay, and the documentation
    Eli> should be amended if it could confuse.

Itʼs only ok if weʼre ok with shift-selection being broken by it. Are
we?

Robert
-- 

bug#53452: 29.0.50; C-<arrow> selection broken by translate-upper-case-key-bindings

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
> Cc: spacibba@aol.com,  53452@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 13:37:13 +0100
> 
> >>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 14:29:56 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:
> 
>     >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
>     >> So either we fix the behaviour, or the documentation. Would it be that
>     >> hard to restrict this to something like [a-z] or !function key? Or we
>     >> could always add yet-another-user-option.
> 
>     Eli> My point was that the behavior is probably okay, and the documentation
>     Eli> should be amended if it could confuse.
> 
> Itʼs only ok if weʼre ok with shift-selection being broken by it. Are
> we?

Like I said: I don't see how shift-selection could NOT be broken by
disabling shift-translation, because it DEPENDS on it.