From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jay Belanger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:01:36 -0500 Message-ID: <87odvo5a3z.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> References: Reply-To: belanger@truman.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153163008 22780 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 19:03:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:03:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: belanger@truman.edu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 21:03:25 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2YMh-0006jr-56 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:02:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2YMg-0007rG-LZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:02:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2YMM-0007o5-Hm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:02:26 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2YMK-0007nH-EL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:02:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2YMK-0007mt-2s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:02:24 -0400 Original-Received: from [150.243.160.94] (helo=uranium.truman.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1G2YP2-00068H-Gz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:05:12 -0400 Original-Received: from uranium.truman.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F5491429D for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:07:23 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: from vh213602.truman.edu.truman.edu (vh213602.truman.edu [150.243.64.4]) by uranium.truman.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4042A57C06; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:06:38 -0500 (CDT) Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:11:27 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57215 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: > > They're already used to it - there are no more virgin users. > > They're not used to using the mouse with Emacs. > > What we're talking about here is menu access and clicking links and buttons. > There is nothing Emacs-specific with how user users do those things in > Emacs - nothing new. I think you're grasping at straws, here. No. They are being implicitly told that using the mouse is the way to use Emacs. No straws involved. > > I'm not suggesting we teach them *any* way to perform simple > > navigation (equivalent of `n' and `p'). On the contrary, my > > point was that we *need not* teach that. There is an obvious, > > simple way to navigate: click a link or navigation button. > > Falling back on that is effectively teaching them that's the way to do > it, or at least allowing them to teach themselves thats how to do it. > > Not at all. At most, it could be said to *not* teach them to change their > nasty ways. But it does not teach them *anything* new about the > mouse/keyboard. It tells them that that is how to use Emacs. After all, what else do they know? > The question is, "Where is the right place to crusade for the keyboard?" Hardly a crusade. > That lesson is a distraction from teaching Info. The question is whether teaching Info properly involves teaching the keyboard or not. On this, people can disagree, but using loaded language is not helpful.