From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juri Linkov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: composed characters question and suggestions for quail-cyrillic-* Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:54:35 +0300 Organization: JURTA Message-ID: <87od583s2a.fsf@jurta.org> References: <86lk19mmua.fsf@lifelogs.com> <485298A4.30000@gnu.org> <867ict8awn.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87zlouswvk.fsf@jurta.org> <86skulfo7j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fxql8j7y.fsf@jurta.org> <86y74ccrp4.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1215557736 6546 80.91.229.12 (8 Jul 2008 22:55:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:55:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ted Zlatanov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 09 00:56:22 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KGM6g-0002IL-48 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:56:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39577 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KGM5o-00033S-TL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:55:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KGM5k-00033K-Hc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:55:24 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KGM5j-00032z-3k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:55:24 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=59222 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KGM5i-00032w-UW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:55:22 -0400 Original-Received: from relay02.kiev.sovam.com ([62.64.120.197]:63721) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KGM5i-0008Po-9x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:55:22 -0400 Original-Received: from [83.170.232.243] (helo=smtp.svitonline.com) by relay02.kiev.sovam.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KGM5e-000MZx-49; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:55:18 +0300 In-Reply-To: <86y74ccrp4.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Tue, 08 Jul 2008 10:37:43 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-Scanner-Signature: 9f090f397804869cf00fade203417d62 X-DrWeb-checked: yes X-SpamTest-Envelope-From: juri@jurta.org X-SpamTest-Group-ID: 00000000 X-SpamTest-Header: Trusted X-SpamTest-Info: Profiles 4261 [July 9 2008] X-SpamTest-Info: {received from trusted relay: common white list} X-SpamTest-Method: white ip list X-SpamTest-Rate: 0 X-SpamTest-Status: Trusted X-SpamTest-Status-Extended: trusted X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 3.0.0 [0278], KAS30/Release X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 6.x (1) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:100466 Archived-At: > JL> Instead of the grave accent `, most Cyrillic languages (including Bulgarian, > JL> Russian, Ukrainian) use the acute accent ' to mark the stressed vowel. > JL> Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_accent#Stress for more > JL> information. > > Take a look at the Unicode Cyrillic chart. Only the grave is available > for ѝ for example. They all have to be done with combining. > > We still need the grave-accented ѝ Ѝ letters, too. So both ' and ` (or > something similar) will be needed as prefix keys. Yes, I agree. We need both ` and '. For some letters the grave accent is part of the Unicode character (Ѝ, Ѐ), for some letters the acute accent is part of the Unicode character (Ѓ, Ќ), and for vowels the acute accent is used to mark the primary stress, and the grave accent is used to mark the secondary stress. > JL> If combining characters take two lines, then it is a bug. I remember > JL> that rendering of combining characters was correct before the Unicode > JL> merge. If it was possible to do right before the merge, maybe it will be > JL> possible to fix this in current code using the same logic? > > OK. Furthermore, I can do > > (insert (compose-chars ?а ?̀)) > > but if I try the resulting character in quail-define-rules, it's not a > valid character read sequence, being two characters. I also can't > specify the `compose-chars' function call or a string there. How do I > specify a combined character in the quail rules? Maybe something like this should work ("a`" "а̀") ("a'" "а́"). > JL> In Bulgarian it is rare, but in Russian and Ukrainian it is very > JL> frequently used letter ;-) > > Understood, but ' is the most sensible prefix for accents as well. I think we should use ` and ' as the postfix character, like latin-postfix vs latin-prefix. > Can we have `' generate acute accents and ` generate grave? > That's a decent compromise since accented letters are rarely needed. Since ` and ' are more important for accented letters, we should find an alternative key for ь. > According to > > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86 > > "абзац" is a synonym for paragraph in Russian (and comes from German, so > I learned something new :). I don't know what's exactly right here, but > we can certainly accomodate /pa as a paragraph prefix that produces §. > I would prefer to leave /ab as § as well since (AFAIK) the pilcrow is > not as common. Do you agree? Good, but I wonder if we should provide this kind of mnemonics for all languages (e.g. "/se" for English since it is the section sign :-) > The goal is convenience for the users, so I hope we don't build a large > prefix tree. Just the limited repertoire here is already hard to > remember. I now noticed that I can't type a pair of double quotes in cyrillic-translit that I often do. Maybe this rule should use the slash prefix key /"" -> “ ? -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/