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From: Evans Winner <thorne@unm.edu>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: line-move-visual
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:48:08 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87ocfiec7r.fsf@unm.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: jwvhblb2fal.fsf-monnier+gnu.emacs.help@gnu.org

In my opinion, the question should never be what new users
of Emacs want.  What new users want is an editor that is 5%
better than notepad.exe because that is per-force the limit
of their imagination.  They generally do no know 1% of what
Emacs can do, so are not in a position to intelligently
decide what the defaults should be.  They /should/ want to
rely on experienced users for that, and they should be
willing to spend the extra tiny bit of effort up-front to
learn the reasoning behind it.  If they aren't, then Emacs
isn't for them.  Let them go.  Changing defaults to whatever
makes the least friction for those who switch to Emacs is
not a service to new users; the principle is that people
tend to stick with what they learn first, so dumbed-down
defaults produces dumbed-down users, who will, after a few
months or years, show up on emacs-devel demanding even more
dumbed-down defaults, because that would make it even easier
for the next generation of Microsoft/IBM/CUA refugees.

It sometimes surprises me to find that even some experienced
users of Emacs don't use and even sometimes don't know how
to use keyboard macros.  The name Emacs does, after all,
come from the phrase "Editor MACroS."  It is a fundamental
part of the user experience.  The question with regards to
new users and line-move-visual is whether the slight savings
in initial cognitive friction comes and the price of making
it more difficult for new users to learn to create and use
typical line-at-a-time-type keyboard macros.  I don't claim
to know the answer to this particular question, but I think
the principle above is the right one to consider in this
kind of case.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2010-06-10 22:48 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 174+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <alpine.OSX.2.00.1006031053170.77397@hsinghsing.panda.com>
     [not found] ` <hu925r$1b$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
     [not found]   ` <alpine.OSX.2.00.1006031431510.77397@hsinghsing.panda.com>
2010-06-04  7:59     ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
     [not found]       ` <87pr07qjio.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de>
2010-06-04 11:24         ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-04 12:49           ` line-move-visual Tassilo Horn
2010-06-09 19:51             ` line-move-visual Joseph Brenner
2010-06-09 20:22               ` line-move-visual Brendan Halpin
2010-06-10  1:23               ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
     [not found]         ` <hualdf$eln$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
2010-06-04 13:00           ` line-move-visual Tassilo Horn
2010-06-04 14:51             ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-04 20:53               ` line-move-visual Tassilo Horn
2010-06-09 19:42               ` proposed keyboard-macro to record to elisp (was Re: line-move-visual) Joseph Brenner
2010-06-09 22:42                 ` LanX
     [not found]             ` <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie>
     [not found]               ` <hub2ss$is4$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
2010-06-04 14:45                 ` line-move-visual Brendan Halpin
2010-06-04 17:49               ` line-move-visual Xah Lee
2010-06-04 18:18                 ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-04 19:19                   ` line-move-visual Xah Lee
     [not found]                     ` <alpine.OSX.2.00.1006041829210.77397@hsinghsing.panda.com>
     [not found]                       ` <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
2010-06-06  9:53                         ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-06  9:39                           ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
     [not found]                             ` <hug5rv$6d2$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
2010-06-06 15:21                               ` line-move-visual Tassilo Horn
2010-06-07  8:19                                 ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
     [not found]                                   ` <m2fx0z46wj.fsf@gmail.com>
2010-06-07 16:20                                     ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-06 15:43                               ` line-move-visual Alain Ketterlin
     [not found]                                 ` <87wrucccl3.fsf_-_@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de>
2010-06-07  6:18                                   ` Wrong use of format=flowed antidote Uday S Reddy
2010-06-07 21:30                                 ` line-move-visual Joost Kremers
2010-06-06 18:17                               ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
     [not found]                                 ` <4C0C466E.3000803@thadlabs.com>
2010-06-07  2:53                                   ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-07  8:46                               ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-07 16:23                                 ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-09 20:23                                   ` line-move-visual Joseph Brenner
2010-06-07  8:39                             ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-10 10:12                               ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-10 13:43                                 ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-10 15:17                                   ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-10 19:53                                     ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-10 15:44                                   ` line-move-visual despen
2010-06-10 22:02                                   ` line-move-visual Tassilo Horn
2010-06-10 23:56                                     ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-10 22:48                                   ` Evans Winner [this message]
     [not found]                                     ` <slrni2ja96.6pq.nospam-abuse@powdermilk.math.berkeley.edu>
2010-06-29 11:09                                       ` HOWTO: Cowtow to old farts Xah Lee
2010-06-10 16:57                                 ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-10 18:38                                   ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-11 23:56                                     ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-12  0:17                                       ` line-move-visual Wojciech Meyer
2010-06-13 17:23                                         ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-13 20:56                                           ` line-move-visual Alan Mackenzie
2010-06-14  0:42                                             ` line-move-visual Jim Diamond
2010-06-14 10:49                                             ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-14 17:16                                               ` line-move-visual Alan Mackenzie
2010-06-14 17:34                                                 ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-15  9:26                                               ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-15 13:49                                                 ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
     [not found]                                                   ` <87sk4n3ocs.fsf@rapttech.com.au>
2010-06-16 14:43                                                     ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
     [not found]                                             ` <m2k4q18od5.fsf@softwarematters.org>
     [not found]                                               ` <jwvaaqxbcca.fsf-monnier+gnu.emacs.help@gnu.org>
2010-06-15  6:54                                                 ` line-move-visual Pascal J. Bourguignon
2010-06-15  8:42                                                   ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-15  9:30                                                     ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
2010-06-15  9:38                                                     ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-15 13:45                                                     ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-15 13:57                                                       ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
     [not found]                                                         ` <jwvbpbb6oyk.fsf-monnier+gnu.emacs.help@gnu.org>
2010-06-16 18:04                                                           ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
     [not found]                                                       ` <hv8gvf$98o$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
     [not found]                                                         ` <hv8iog$313e$1@colin2.muc.de>
2010-06-15 19:37                                                           ` line-move-visual Leo
     [not found]                                                             ` <871vc8dpga.fsf@imladris.arda>
2010-06-16 12:37                                                               ` Emacs language Leo
2010-06-17  8:00                                                                 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-06-15 21:04                                                           ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-16 15:33                                                             ` line-move-visual Alan Mackenzie
2010-06-17  8:51                                                               ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-16 14:33                                                         ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
     [not found]                                                           ` <db13ae67-9d9a-4556-9a7c-8f86de63011f@b4g2000pra.googlegroups.com>
2010-07-19 22:41                                                             ` minor mode on/off/toggle with t/nil question Stefan Monnier
2010-06-15 16:51                                                     ` line-move-visual Alan Mackenzie
2010-06-16 12:43                                                       ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
2010-06-15 19:17                                                     ` line-move-visual Xah Lee
2010-06-16 14:49                                                       ` espresso-mode (was: line-move-visual) Stefan Monnier
     [not found]                                                     ` <4C17FE36.30102@thadlabs.com>
2010-06-15 22:45                                                       ` line-move-visual Xah Lee
2010-06-15 23:31                                                         ` line-move-visual Thad Floryan
2010-06-16  3:30                                                           ` line-move-visual Evans Winner
2010-06-16 16:14                                                             ` line-move-visual Xah Lee
2010-06-16 23:23                                                           ` line-move-visual Chris F.A. Johnson
     [not found]                                                           ` <b1e84c4a-e74e-4ace-9b0f-a00b370eb61d@q39g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
2010-06-16 23:45                                                             ` Keyboard Hardware's Influence on Keyboard Shortcut Design Xah Lee
2010-06-16 14:52                                                         ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
     [not found]                                                           ` <87r5k6sqg2.fsf@unm.edu>
2010-06-17  2:25                                                             ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-17  3:51                                                               ` line-move-visual Chris F.A. Johnson
2010-06-17  9:03                                                             ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-20 18:42                                                               ` line-move-visual B. T. Raven
2010-06-20 17:08                                                 ` line-move-visual B. T. Raven
2010-06-12  4:18                                       ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-12  4:37                                         ` line-move-visual Evans Winner
2010-06-12  8:30                                           ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
2010-06-12  8:40                                             ` line-move-visual Evans Winner
2010-06-12  9:30                                             ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-12 12:30                                               ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-12 20:09                                           ` line-move-visual Joseph Brenner
2010-06-13  1:41                                             ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-13 10:22                                               ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-13 10:51                                                 ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
2010-06-13 11:32                                                   ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-14  0:46                                                 ` line-move-visual Tim X
     [not found]                                                   ` <hv4nkd$quq$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
2010-06-15  9:20                                                     ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-15 11:29                                                       ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-16  9:29                                                         ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-14  4:48                                                 ` line-move-visual Tim X
     [not found]                                                 ` <m2iq5nw4pj.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]                                                   ` <hv2htd$4li$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
     [not found]                                                     ` <m239wravxb.fsf@gmail.com>
2010-06-16  2:11                                                       ` line-move-visual Joseph Brenner
2010-06-16  6:46                                                         ` line-move-visual Helmut Eller
2010-06-13 10:36                                             ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
2010-06-16  2:19                                               ` line-move-visual Joseph Brenner
     [not found]                                         ` <huvsd5$8pm$1@north.jnrs.ja.net>
2010-06-12 12:25                                           ` line-move-visual Tim X
2010-06-12 20:17                                             ` line-move-visual Joseph Brenner
2010-06-10 19:57                                   ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-13 12:46                                     ` line-move-visual Uday S Reddy
2010-06-09 21:38                             ` line-move-visual Joseph Brenner
     [not found]                               ` <slrni10ga0.t64.Jim.Diamond@jdiamond-nb.acadiau.ca>
2010-06-10 16:15                                 ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-04 17:52       ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-04 18:28         ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
     [not found]           ` <alpine.OSX.2.00.1006041808540.77397@hsinghsing.panda.com>
     [not found]             ` <878w6truxc.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
2010-06-06  2:25               ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
     [not found]               ` <87typc9dt8.fsf@kzsu.stanford.edu>
     [not found]                 ` <alpine.OSX.2.00.1006091815150.93771@hsinghsing.panda.com>
2010-06-10  7:12                   ` line-move-visual David Kastrup
2010-06-04 21:16         ` line-move-visual Stefan Monnier
2010-06-05  1:29           ` line-move-visual Mark Crispin
2010-06-04 13:20     ` line-move-visual sable
2009-07-09 18:12 line-move-visual Johan Myréen
2009-07-10  4:26 ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-10  4:43   ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-10  5:48     ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-10  6:14       ` line-move-visual Kenichi Handa
2009-07-10  6:58         ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-10  8:13           ` line-move-visual Alfred M. Szmidt
2009-07-10 10:10             ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-10  8:43           ` line-move-visual Scot Becker
2009-07-10  8:57             ` line-move-visual Eli Zaretskii
2009-07-10  9:04               ` line-move-visual Lennart Borgman
2009-07-10 10:32                 ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-10  9:08               ` line-move-visual Scot Becker
2009-07-10  9:13               ` line-move-visual joakim
2009-07-10  9:22                 ` line-move-visual Scot Becker
2009-07-10 16:11                   ` line-move-visual Drew Adams
2009-07-10 16:22                     ` line-move-visual Lennart Borgman
2009-07-10 17:20                       ` line-move-visual Drew Adams
2009-07-10 17:40                         ` line-move-visual Drew Adams
2009-07-10  9:52                 ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-10 16:11                   ` line-move-visual Drew Adams
2009-07-10 11:35               ` line-move-visual Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-07-10 13:38                 ` line-move-visual Eli Zaretskii
2009-07-10 16:11                   ` line-move-visual Drew Adams
2009-07-10 18:01                     ` line-move-visual Eli Zaretskii
2009-07-10 18:16                       ` line-move-visual Drew Adams
2009-07-11 19:34                   ` line-move-visual Juri Linkov
2009-07-10 13:56                 ` line-move-visual Lennart Borgman
2009-07-10 15:07                   ` line-move-visual Scot Becker
2009-07-10 20:29                     ` line-move-visual Lennart Borgman
2009-07-10 15:43               ` line-move-visual Alfred M. Szmidt
2009-07-10 15:56             ` line-move-visual Sean O'Rourke
2009-07-10  9:14           ` line-move-visual Tassilo Horn
2009-07-10  9:56             ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-10 10:22               ` line-move-visual Scot Becker
2009-07-10 16:11                 ` line-move-visual Drew Adams
2009-07-10 10:36               ` line-move-visual Ulrich Mueller
2009-07-10 10:56                 ` line-move-visual Eli Zaretskii
2009-07-10 11:07                   ` line-move-visual Christian Faulhammer
2009-07-10 11:29                   ` line-move-visual Ulrich Mueller
2009-07-10 18:15                     ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-10 20:40     ` line-move-visual Richard Stallman
2009-07-11  1:58       ` line-move-visual Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-07-11  2:29         ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-11  2:44           ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-11 18:30             ` line-move-visual Richard Stallman
2009-07-10  6:12   ` line-move-visual Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-07-10 21:19     ` line-move-visual Johan Myréen
2009-07-10 22:14       ` line-move-visual Scot Becker
2009-07-11  1:34       ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-11  2:46       ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-11  5:25         ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-11  5:49           ` line-move-visual Kenichi Handa
2009-07-11  6:13             ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-11  9:22           ` line-move-visual Bastien
2009-07-10  4:35 ` line-move-visual Miles Bader
2009-07-10 13:31 ` line-move-visual Chong Yidong
2009-07-11  6:42 ` line-move-visual Andrey Paramonov
2009-07-11  7:21   ` line-move-visual Teemu Likonen

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