From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 13:04:03 +0900 Message-ID: <87ob55cguk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83vbzkcx20.fsf@gnu.org> <83d2lrczi7.fsf@gnu.org> <8338mmcsd9.fsf@gnu.org> <83txf1blf2.fsf@gnu.org> <87txf133yd.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <83r4a5bj5x.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwktdy6r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83iovhb0ez.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3fxdpmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837gbwbcsx.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2lnevq7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ob57rlkb.fsf_-_@informatimago.com> <35e892b1-73b8-4ca2-9317-7eb83e7223e5@default> <464a688e-b7a5-4f6b-84b4-d7cd42107c8d@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385611466 27568 80.91.229.3 (28 Nov 2013 04:04:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 04:04:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "T.V. Raman" , Emacs-Devel devel , Drew Adams , "Pascal J. Bourguignon" To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 28 05:04:30 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlsq6-0005RK-2U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2013 05:04:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38985 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlsq5-00030O-Hy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:04:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33231) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlspv-0002ld-Rp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:04:27 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlspo-0008Eq-IP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:04:19 -0500 Original-Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:43666) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlspo-00089M-1E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:04:12 -0500 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD145970999; Thu, 28 Nov 2013 13:04:03 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AEDAE1A5193; Thu, 28 Nov 2013 13:04:03 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" 182d01410b8d XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165825 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: > The capability to export from .org files to LibreOffice etc is a very > good feature. That's arguable. It means that you may not be able to roundtrip editing: > However the trouble is you can not import LibreOffice (since .org > files can't handle all of the structure). That's T.V.'s point, you see. Well, actually you have to look at *why* you can't import it. So, let's see .... How often do you actually need the structure that's imposed? Consider the HTML email I'm responding to, which is a response to a plain text email. In my (ancient broken) MUA, your email completely screws up the display and confuses the message-mode buffer when I yank it. Did you actually use any features that aren't present in plain text to express your ideas? No. But you screwed up my MUA (which is HTML-aware, but not good enough to handle the crap produced by HTML-oriented MUAs) anyway, for no good reason. The same thing will happen to you if you export a document composed in org-mode to .odt so a person who uses *Office can edit it. Every time, regardless of need for features that org doesn't provide. *Most of the time* there's no *content* or *expression* in a .doc or .odt file that org-mode can't handle fine. But you still can't import it. That's just *wrong*. I will grant Drew's point: I'm sure that the high-end WYSIWYG programs do keep a good separation between content (including expressive semantics such as "emphasis") and presentation. But *Office doesn't, and won't for a decade, I expect. And that's our target, not Framemaker, because the people we need to exchange documents with use *Office.