From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: member returns list Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 01:38:08 +0200 Message-ID: <87oah7ryxr.fsf@debian.uxu> References: <87bndfauey.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87wpw0e58f.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> <87si6n822t.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87oaha9a64.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87twr1pycd.fsf@debian.uxu> <87zj0s5yc8.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87r3m45r7a.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87egi45fiw.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1442100615 32664 80.91.229.3 (12 Sep 2015 23:30:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 23:30:15 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 01:30:06 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZauFC-0002zO-5P for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 01:30:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34002 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZauFB-0003ez-FW for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:30:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52068) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZauF0-0003eo-TM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:29:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZauEw-0000Gd-Pb for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:29:54 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:38251) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZauEw-0000GS-JQ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:29:50 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZauEs-0002WV-Tm for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 01:29:46 +0200 Original-Received: from nl106-137-244.student.uu.se ([130.243.137.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 01:29:46 +0200 Original-Received: from embe8573 by nl106-137-244.student.uu.se with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 01:29:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-Lines: 68 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: nl106-137-244.student.uu.se Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ZRHxcU3jRxKA3H5Q81cTrbI2V98= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:107181 Archived-At: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" writes: > Given how accepted and mainstream lisp is, I can > perfectly imagine a universe where it would be > totally ignored and where we'd lose all > its offsprings. Some of the novelties that were introduced and/or refined in Lisp are perhaps mainstream today, in other languages and systems, but Lisp is not. Actually it is totally marginalized. I know this from reading job ads for one. Out of a hundred ads, there is tons of Java, a lot C#, some web programming in different languages, some SQL, and one or two oddball projects and leftovers in C, C++ or even older languages. But there isn't *a single* ad for a Lisp programmer! Even in the non-commercial world, very, very few young programmers turn to Lisp. Even the "functional programming" goofballs at the universities most often do Haskell and not Lisp (or ML). > For example, Backus, of BNF and Fortran frame, wrote > a paper about functional programming in 1959! > You can bet it would still be ignored if lisp hadn't > shown the path with a garbage collector and high > order functions, and if it hadn't existed to develop > ML and from this all the functional programming > language to Haskell nowadays. We can bet all we want but never know for sure. Even the premise "no Lisp" is dubious. Because, why was there a Lisp? Say, there was a Lisp because of factors A, B, and C. Now, if we are to remove Lisp from history and then figure out what the world of today would have looked like, should we not only remove Lisp, but also A, B, and C? But if we do that, how do we know they didn't create something else, in parallel with Lisp? Should we remove that as well? It is like a dough, or a tree, rather than the linear chain of events as you put it. Nothing can ever be removed or inserted that is there or isn't there. > Similarly for the web. Without lisp and the > interface builder (a macintosh program written in > lisp originally, and therefore doubly dependent on > lisp (from the > lisp->smalltalk->parc->apple->lisa->mac and from the > lisp->dynamic-programming->UI paths), you wouldn't > have had nextstep where it was easy, obvious and > trivial even, to develop html and WWW > server/browser, given the building blocks available. > The alternative at the time was Xanadu on the > hypertext side, SGML on the document side, and > gopher on the client/server side. They could have > spend tens of years trying to mix two or three of > those into something vaguely ressembling the www, > without lisp and NeXTSTEP. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned XML. No Lisp, no XML, right? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573