From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Michael Albinus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Change Tramp syntax Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 19:50:38 +0200 Message-ID: <87o9wc83kh.fsf@detlef> References: <20170309184457.29604.13048@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20170309184458.08C9725FCF@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <87k27xfo3q.fsf@detlef> <87efy5fmml.fsf@detlef> <87mvcti5he.fsf_-_@detlef> <83shmldumk.fsf@gnu.org> <87fuhppgt0.fsf@detlef> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1491328271 22862 195.159.176.226 (4 Apr 2017 17:51:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 17:51:11 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 04 19:51:00 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cvSbP-00040I-7X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 19:50:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36964 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cvSbV-0002QG-3j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 13:50:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55282) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cvSbP-0002Q8-FM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 13:50:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cvSbK-00032Z-J4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 13:50:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:60078) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cvSbK-000323-9o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 13:50:42 -0400 Original-Received: from detlef.gmx.de ([87.146.43.219]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LcBPV-1cEBHm1KxJ-00jbct for ; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 19:50:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2017 10:04:56 -0700") X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:P4PcHq/fTKBYJOWKmfZt2y0x4Gvv4iA1uqZNZnI2DAfY02TLRCF 8MsdViCFdJkQkTk7wzJtoSazoPjY5mfcMioTlAXXundjXOwVcXvCt8KnwPp6bFJoYEqn61O V/wutcC1Qv0oTCbk7tlSxZt7bESCW0AYxtWDsITN842qs8H4G5w2FsZleiL9MpV4mbH35qN 8lBtHSxkfo8sj4ceu4HOw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:72Baf6wT5KM=:wQwij9uuEBE+dh+/lQrdkz xB2fu4WfoBg1GVoX4jZN/dWOnhZvqM8J3vw+Acg8Q3eMYrr7/t8ETeLWkYO84ZZH4o68jFV1u Y05YR3K0ToADR1I/W1xbNjgn6zPPusq48joaNx0wNXclgLPwwdayBOPDqIeXlrhkLRtPDBWej e1ECygAPyga067/cRqEowVXB4H6wiO1ttWakQ8k5wXa1Nht42BlzwnsgkG0fEQwNuK4iUCrZP 00jJ9ubE4f7++Vd26CtwKR4fNabIuTO4F1g4Xx+3Q/STNCXvHdXTpKSUxs4FP4xskVxLALYxp 6zkPgyo9anpinyl4CCHPWdDX6Ja+vWrMpIStrdot04BzgBxoahb5J8jJIhSt2cv4VyL3X6ki5 LjAgS7Feyyq8Onch4SMz4WGPnWQxkDglOkkXrDZ8coX3eeZ7XzM9KRBX0wyiRMHW7W8EM3oyd Sr6PJhnCHiXK6EIThAERlYLfhDoqpqNZjVMz34u99BzEDdvgf5SvNra5BWTCFz4Eg5U0LgLfx rCOD0Cc8okuQ9h1+9QZXWkNdCZORHnUqm4/k3eZfRQyow/MML1pOwVfUGOBFSU6lYuEan84Jk fHU7vHlEz0LAKm2cMKChfWAV76129vfa6LbpKswtzGacMwaRzM+h7KI8Ki1NUFJTNHY3U+5yj gvyttxtmQxwgwAlfaoNYe9hpGL7tbzwGHFTYFmfs0F+CbwqIhcCTUzqGKd0Q3ts0+PmS9uePN 5Xl5yvY7WEmwFjLOTEyvJCB6TxylM2afPaX/hLD2TzSgCIi0x5sX+XPk6pwJmmMXp0RxH3nZ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:213652 Archived-At: John Wiegley writes: Hi John, >> This is the essence of my question: Does it solve the problem for some, at a >> cost to others? What is the new user experience if they fail to use "ssh:"? >> Is it obvious what they've done wrong and how to fix it? > > Michael, I'd still like an answer to these questions, please. I'm concerned > about how this change is going to affect users who aren't as aware of Tramp > and its workings. Thanks! Alternatively, if we implement a compat translation > that is on by default for at least a few versions, it would resolve these > questions as well. If people do a simple "C-x C-f /localhost:" from an Emacs started with -Q, they get an error "File not found and directory write-protected". Tramp cannot do anything else, because it is not involved. If there is a file name completion package active (ido, icomplete, whatever), they get a guidance while typing the filename, latest when the trailing ":" has been typed. If a user tries to complete a filename, even if only plain Emacs is called with -Q, she gets a guidance. Typing "/ l o c " does not complete to anything. Well, this decision is a trade-off between my permanent frustration of not working parts of Tramp (and being blamed for this when I tried to find a solution), and limiting users with a changed syntax. If you call me guilty, then I'm guilty for not doing this change 15 years ago. I believe it won't be too much bad feedback after people have understood the change. Some years ago, the obscure /multi:ssh:host1:ssh:host2: syntax was removed, even w/o an alternative. Later, the alternative /ssh:host1|ssh:host2: was introduced. People did accept. Of course, I'm biased, and there might have been a lot of frustration from people because of that change. But then it didn't reach me. Adding pure ange-ftp like syntax, as I have offered, seems to be a good compromise for all of us. And please take also into account, that I mean it seriously: if you insist in keeping the syntax as it was, I will insist in seeing other people working on Tramp. I'm the lonely maintainer since 2004, and there are no remarkable contributions from somebody else except tramp-adb.el, written by Juergen Hoetzel. > Thanks, Best regards, Michael.