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From: hw <hw@adminart.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, rms@gnu.org,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Some developement questions
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:23:53 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87o9d7bryw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83r2i4rmg7.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 08 Sep 2018 19:19:36 +0300")

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: hw <hw@adminart.net>
>> Cc: eliz@gnu.org,  phillip.lord@russet.org.uk,  spacibba@aol.com,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 15:02:51 +0200
> [...]
>> 
>> Beginners will probably consider "the normal way to do cursor motion in
>> Emacs" as the most complicated and awkward way to do cursor motion
>> anywhere.
> [...]
>> Tutorials which take this into account more strongly might be more
>> encouraging to use Emacs in the first place, and then beginners might
>> want to learn the special movement keys.
>
> The Emacs tutorial already mentions the arrow keys, before it teaches
> the more ergonomic cursor motion keys.

My point is not which particular keys to use but that the tutorial
doesn't fly because it makes false assumptions ---

in this case about the efficiency with which certain keys can be pressed
which largely depends on

+ the users and their skill-level in 10-finger typing,

+ the equipment in use and

+ the difficulty of un-learning the usage of arrow keys which might have
  already been practised to a rather high and extremely efficient
  skill-level over decades and is still needed everywhere else

--- which lead the tutorial to lengthly go into explanations about
irrelevant key bindings rather than about relevant ones which prevents
it from picking up beginners where they think they are so that
confidence can be instilled in them that they can learn Emacs, and trust
that Emacs isn't difficult to use at all.



  reply	other threads:[~2018-09-08 23:23 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 216+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <444779489.8504194.1534538988289.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
2018-08-17 20:49 ` Some developement questions Ergus
2018-08-18  6:21   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-22 12:34     ` hw
2018-08-22 14:45       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-22 16:37         ` hw
2018-08-22 17:31           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-22 22:17             ` hw
2018-08-23  0:20               ` Ergus
2018-08-23 10:50                 ` hw
2018-08-23 16:33                   ` Ergus
2018-08-23 14:20                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-23  8:26               ` Pierre Neidhardt
2018-08-23 14:04               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-24  1:00                 ` hw
2018-08-24  9:04                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-25  0:45                     ` Ergus
2018-08-26 12:46                       ` hw
2018-08-25  1:31                     ` hw
2018-08-25  7:35                       ` Alexis
2018-08-25 10:34                         ` Ergus
2018-08-25 16:11                           ` Radon Rosborough
2018-08-25 16:20                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-25 20:34                               ` Ergus
2018-08-26  2:41                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-26  1:24                               ` Radon Rosborough
2018-08-25 20:50                             ` Ergus
2018-08-26  1:33                             ` hw
2018-08-26 14:37                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-26 22:51                                 ` hw
2018-08-27 14:45                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-28 20:42                                     ` hw
2018-08-29  6:59                                       ` Michael Albinus
2018-08-29 20:10                                         ` hw
2018-08-31 13:16                                           ` Michael Albinus
2018-09-01 17:53                                             ` hw
2018-09-03 13:35                                               ` Michael Albinus
2018-09-04 14:06                                                 ` hw
2018-08-29 15:11                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-29 20:52                                         ` hw
2018-08-29 22:12                                           ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-08-30 23:49                                             ` hw
2018-09-03 18:56                                               ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-04 14:16                                                 ` hw
2018-09-04 19:47                                                   ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-05 20:36                                                     ` hw
2018-09-06  1:33                                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2018-09-06  5:16                                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-06  5:29                                                           ` Michael Heerdegen
2018-09-06 13:52                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                         ` <<831sa6ybqu.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-06 14:30                                                           ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07  7:03                                                         ` hw
2018-09-06 13:48                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  7:01                                                         ` hw
2018-09-06 18:15                                                       ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-07  7:18                                                         ` hw
2018-09-07 14:10                                                           ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-07 21:27                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 12:29                                                               ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-10 18:18                                                                 ` hw
2018-09-11  9:51                                                                   ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-11 20:14                                                                     ` hw
2018-09-12  1:18                                                                       ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-08-30  2:12                                           ` Davis Herring
2018-09-01 17:40                                             ` hw
2018-09-01 19:41                                               ` Joshua Branson
2018-09-02 15:07                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 18:23                                                   ` Ergus
2018-09-04 15:21                                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 20:57                                                       ` Ergus
2018-09-05 21:48                                                         ` hw
2018-09-01 22:13                                               ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-02 15:39                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 22:01                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-03  7:30                                                     ` martin rudalics
2018-09-04 15:35                                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 16:44                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-05 22:21                                                         ` hw
2018-09-03  7:29                                                   ` martin rudalics
2018-09-01 22:30                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-02 16:02                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 17:50                                               ` Ergus
2018-08-30 13:44                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-31  0:40                                             ` hw
2018-09-01 18:47                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-02 16:27                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 17:12                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-04 15:43                                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 16:46                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-05 22:40                                                         ` hw
2018-08-30 23:30                               ` Radon Rosborough
2018-09-01 18:25                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 19:05                                   ` Radon Rosborough
2018-09-02 20:42                                     ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2018-09-03  2:37                                       ` Radon Rosborough
2018-09-04 15:57                                     ` hw
2018-08-26 20:41                             ` Richard Stallman
2018-08-27  2:33                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-27 22:51                                 ` Richard Stallman
2018-08-27 17:11                           ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-08-28  3:41                             ` Ergus
2018-08-26 13:06                         ` hw
2018-08-27  2:18                           ` Ergus
2018-08-25  8:19                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-26 14:25                         ` Noam Postavsky
2018-08-26 15:52                         ` hw
2018-08-26 16:23                           ` Stefan Monnier
2018-08-27  4:59                             ` hw
2018-08-27  1:54                           ` Ergus
2018-08-27 14:46                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-28 21:26                               ` Richard Stallman
2018-08-29 15:39                               ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-01 13:59                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-02  3:11                                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-02 17:52                                     ` Ergus
2018-09-04 15:20                                       ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-04 13:07                                     ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-05  6:26                                       ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-06  0:29                                         ` hw
2018-09-07  6:39                                           ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-07  8:01                                             ` hw
2018-09-07 10:26                                               ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-07 14:00                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2018-09-07 14:20                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 16:00                                                   ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                                   ` <<83zhwttmm7.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-07 16:03                                                     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 14:15                                                 ` hw
2018-09-07 15:34                                                   ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-07 21:03                                                     ` hw
2018-09-07 15:52                                                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-08  5:13                                               ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-08 13:02                                                 ` hw
2018-09-08 16:19                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 23:23                                                     ` hw [this message]
2018-09-09  5:29                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10  9:35                                                         ` hw
2018-09-10 12:37                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 19:27                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 13:52                                                           ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-09  6:07                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-09  6:07                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-09  6:23                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-09 17:18                                                     ` Ergus
2018-09-10 11:59                                                     ` hw
2018-09-10 12:40                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 19:48                                                         ` hw
2018-09-11  7:07                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-11 20:31                                                             ` hw
2018-09-06 13:59                                         ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-04 12:58                                   ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-04 16:30                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 19:13                                       ` Paul Eggert
2018-09-04 20:11                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-04 20:31                                           ` Paul Eggert
2018-09-06 12:32                                             ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-06 14:25                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-04 21:14                                         ` Ergus
2018-09-05  2:40                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-05  6:29                                           ` Paul Eggert
2018-09-05  7:59                                             ` Joost Kremers
2018-09-05 15:27                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-09 20:07                                                 ` Joost Kremers
2018-09-09 20:10                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10  5:16                                                   ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-10  7:30                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10  8:26                                                       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-10 12:06                                                         ` hw
2018-09-10 12:44                                                           ` Michael Albinus
2018-09-10 14:57                                                           ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-10 19:58                                                             ` hw
2018-09-11  6:31                                                               ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-11 20:37                                                                 ` hw
2018-09-10 12:52                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-06  1:11                                         ` hw
2018-09-06  1:41                                           ` Ergus
2018-09-07  8:11                                             ` hw
2018-09-06 12:29                                       ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-06 14:24                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-06 14:36                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  6:39                                             ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-07  8:25                                             ` hw
2018-09-07  9:34                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 13:22                                                 ` hw
2018-09-07 14:48                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 16:34                                                     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 21:29                                                     ` hw
2018-09-08  6:21                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 13:12                                                         ` hw
2018-09-08 16:17                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 11:52                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 12:35                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 20:04                                                                 ` hw
2018-09-08 17:00                                                           ` Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-08 23:02                                                           ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-10  6:47                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 14:13                                                               ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                                         ` <<87mussp1zu.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]                                                           ` <<m2a7or53gj.fsf@aurox.ch>
2018-09-09  2:09                                                             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09 23:05                                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 15:26                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 21:53                                                 ` hw
2018-09-07 22:52                                                   ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                           ` <<83r2i6wv4v.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-06 14:56                                             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-06 18:38                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-06 19:27                                                 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-06 19:49                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                               ` <<83k1nywjwv.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-06 23:47                                                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07  6:36                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  8:16                                         ` hw
2018-09-04 20:38                                     ` Ergus
2018-09-06 12:58                                       ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-07  8:45                                       ` hw
2018-09-03 22:15                       ` debounce (was: Some developement questions) Juri Linkov
     [not found] <196033312.7709403.1534426446299.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
2018-08-16 13:34 ` Some developement questions Ergus
2018-08-16 14:15   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-16 14:38     ` Aurélien Aptel
2018-08-16 15:28       ` Andy Moreton
2018-08-16 17:25         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <<87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net>
     [not found] <<8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org>

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