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* Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have
@ 2020-09-08 18:48 Göktuğ Kayaalp
  2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 174+ messages in thread
From: Göktuğ Kayaalp @ 2020-09-08 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel


> I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use
> Emacs—that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. And
> people agree that Emacs isn’t as beginner-friendly as it could be. The
> problem is what to improve, and how.

Not necessarily.  Personally, I don’t see much benefit in trying to
appeal users that have no background in coding whatsoever, and users who
wouldn’t really benefit from what Emacs has to offer.

> As the first step, we should collect real experiences from real
> beginners: someone starts to use Emacs just recently (e.g., less than
> one year).

The major problem is that someone who fiddled with Emacs now and
couldn’t make use of it may think differently when a couple years later
they have some knowledge of programming (not necessarily professionally)
and some experience with other tools.

Anecdotally, I’ve picked up and quit Emacs multiple times before I
decided to stay with it.  And it’s been more than 6 years now that I’m
using it for the good part of my computing.  What was puzzling and weird
to me back then is useful and essential to me now.

What I mean is, what is good for newcomers, who are not guaranteed to
stay, can be irrelevant, not so good, or even off-putting to actual
users of this package of software.  Emacs is a power tool, and like all
power tools, requires two preconditions to be useful: 1) the user should
*need* the tool, and 2) the user should be willing to put in the time to
learn the tool.  And a good power tool is designed with user who need
and use them the most in mind.

IDK. IMHO, we shouldn’t break stuff in Emacs itself, and maybe promote
distros for people that want a more "modern" experience instead.  They
don’t have the backwards compatibility baggage of Emacs so they will do
it better than Emacs core nevertheless.

--
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp / @cadadr / <https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
pgp:   024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 174+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>]
* Re: Interactive guide for new users
@ 2020-09-29 11:11 Itai Efrat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 174+ messages in thread
From: Itai Efrat @ 2020-09-29 11:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: rms, emacs-devel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 810 bytes --]

I think that "Emacs Framework" (proposed by tec@tecosaur.com) is the best
term i've come across so far. It encapsulates the fact that although none
of these are distributing emacs in any sense, they are usually more than
configurations or starter packs. I can't speak for all of them, but Doom
Emacs and Spacemacs both provide abstractions when it comes to configuring
emacs, most notably their module and layer systems, which other than
providing a friendly starting point for using and configuring emacs also
provide a sort of meta structure to allow the user to more easily customise
what e.g. "Emacs when editing Haskell" is (At least in the case of Doom,
I'm unfamiliar with how user defined layers work in spacemacs but I imagine
they exist in a similar way to user defined modules in Doom Emacs).

Itai

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 174+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-09-30 14:11 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 174+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-09-08 18:48 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-08 21:30   ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09  3:51     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 14:18       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 14:24         ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 15:07           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-09 16:09             ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 16:23               ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 16:06           ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-11  4:13             ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  4:13         ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  4:41           ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09  7:57     ` tomas
2020-09-10  2:40       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10  3:32         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10  8:29           ` tomas
2020-09-10  9:08             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10  9:34               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:08                 ` tomas
2020-09-10  9:30             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:11               ` tomas
2020-09-11  4:18           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  7:06             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 13:47               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-12  3:22               ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-12  3:46                 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10  8:28         ` tomas
2020-09-09 14:01   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 23:20     ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11  0:20       ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Stefan Kangas
2020-09-11  8:15         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11  9:47           ` Interactive guide for new users Phil Sainty
2020-09-11 14:04           ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:38             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 14:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:20                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:28                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:46                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:51                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 16:00                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:03                           ` Interactive guide for new users Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:23                             ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:36                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:39                                 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:43                           ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 19:48                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12  6:02                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12  9:33                                 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 12:13                                   ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-11 18:59                           ` FW: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Drew Adams
2020-09-11 17:47                       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-11 17:53                         ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:04                         ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-12 11:16                         ` Interactive guide for new users Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-09-12 14:26                           ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 14:55                             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 15:10                               ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 15:18                                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 18:12               ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11 14:02         ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-12  9:31         ` Interactive guide for new users Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12  9:55           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 10:35             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 10:52               ` Ergus
2020-09-12 10:58               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 11:34                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 12:00                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 12:21                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:56                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 14:07                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 12:54                   ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:16                 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:34                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:18                     ` Ergus
2020-09-12 13:43                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:17                         ` Ergus
2020-09-12 14:36                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:55                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12 16:25                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12 17:17                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 17:21                                 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 17:39                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 18:36                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 20:05                                     ` Ergus
2020-09-13  0:01                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13  2:35                           ` Ergus
2020-09-13 17:56                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:10                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 11:20                                 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-14 23:42                                   ` E
2020-09-15  7:40                                     ` Ergus
2020-09-15 23:40                                       ` E
2020-09-15 12:10                                   ` Stephen Leake
2020-09-15 12:22                                     ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-15 23:33                                     ` E
2020-09-13 18:01                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 18:20                             ` Tim Van den Langenbergh
2020-09-13 21:10                               ` Ergus
2020-09-13  7:14                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 14:04                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 16:38                             ` John Yates
2020-09-13 16:51                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 17:39                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 12:41                                 ` John Yates
2020-09-14 15:28                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-15  1:42                                     ` John Yates
2020-09-15  7:00                                       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-16  3:30                                         ` John Yates
2020-09-16 10:14                                           ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-15 14:15                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-14 22:28                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 17:47                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 14:17                             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-26  9:16               ` Elias Mårtenson
2020-09-26  9:31                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 14:38                 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 15:13                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 16:33                     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:39                   ` Andreas Schwab
2020-09-26 16:57                     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:01                 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-12 11:02             ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 12:12               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 10:52               ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-19 15:20         ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 17:02           ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 14:50             ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 16:07               ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 21:40                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 23:03                   ` Drew Adams
2020-09-22  3:40                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-22  9:06                   ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-23  3:40                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-23 12:49                       ` Philip K.
2020-09-24  1:32                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26  3:13                           ` Okam
2020-09-22 14:06                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28  9:24                   ` Po Lu
2020-09-29  3:29                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-19 17:16           ` Philip K.
2020-09-19 17:25             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 18:09               ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 18:39                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 21:43                   ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20  5:52                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-21 22:15                       ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-22 13:56                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 12:54                           ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 13:28                             ` Caio Henrique
2020-09-23 13:42                               ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 14:16                             ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-23 14:58                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 23:14                               ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-30 13:20                                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-30 14:11                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 17:53             ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20  9:26               ` Philip K.
2020-09-21 21:48                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-11  6:45       ` Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11  8:51         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11  8:59           ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 13:52         ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:01           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 14:27           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-09  2:01 ` Nick Savage
2020-09-09 14:48   ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10  2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 10:07   ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 17:28     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-10 21:17       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
     [not found] <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>
     [not found] ` <<D09D40C2-FF5C-4D1B-A030-C710297C1AE0@gmail.com>
     [not found]   ` <<83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <<8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com>
     [not found]       ` <<CADwFkm=GQqZ2e07QuC582T-MNhi1Xo4OPsMTYbQHH9gD7h6QnA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]         ` <<alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2009120917260453.23267@sdf.lonestar.org>
     [not found]           ` <<83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-09-12 16:25             ` Interactive guide for new users Drew Adams
2020-09-13  4:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-09-29 11:11 Itai Efrat

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