Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[c.buhtz]

Hello togehter,

is it usual to have auto-fill-mode (automatic new-line after n 
characters) turned on in org or org-roam (including fill-column set e.g. 
to 80)?
Or let me ask from another point of view: Is it usual to have multiline 
list entries?

- first list entry
- second list entry with more then 80 chars/columns two with Lorem ipsum 
dolor
sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr
- third entry

Without auto-fill-mode it would look like this, without any linebreak in 
an entry:

- first list entry
- second list entry with more then 80 chars/columns two with Lorem ipsum 
dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr
- third entry

I know that org is not markdown but I tried some markdown editors to 
test it. They still recognize the linebreak in my first example and 
rendered it "correct" as a 3 item list.
I checked the syntax docu [1] about it but I couldn't find a hint or 
didn't understand.

Do I understand it correct that the end of a list is marked by an empty 
line?

[1] -- 
<https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html#Plain_Lists_and_Items>

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[c.buhtz]

I found org-export-as-html and tested this

- one
   eins
ens

This as html is

<ul class="org-ul">
<li>one
eins</li>
</ul>
<p>
ens
</p>


Am 03.04.2022 22:28 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:
> Hello togehter,
> 
> is it usual to have auto-fill-mode (automatic new-line after n
> characters) turned on in org or org-roam (including fill-column set
> e.g. to 80)?
> Or let me ask from another point of view: Is it usual to have
> multiline list entries?
> 
> - first list entry
> - second list entry with more then 80 chars/columns two with Lorem 
> ipsum dolor
> sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr
> - third entry
> 
> Without auto-fill-mode it would look like this, without any linebreak
> in an entry:
> 
> - first list entry
> - second list entry with more then 80 chars/columns two with Lorem
> ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr
> - third entry
> 
> I know that org is not markdown but I tried some markdown editors to
> test it. They still recognize the linebreak in my first example and
> rendered it "correct" as a 3 item list.
> I checked the syntax docu [1] about it but I couldn't find a hint or
> didn't understand.
> 
> Do I understand it correct that the end of a list is marked by an empty 
> line?
> 
> [1] -- 
> <https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html#Plain_Lists_and_Items>

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Kaushal Modi]

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On Sun, Apr 3, 2022, 4:29 PM <c.buhtz@posteo.jp> wrote:

> Hello togehter,
>
> is it usual to have auto-fill-mode (automatic new-line after n
> characters) turned on in org or org-roam (including fill-column set e.g.
> to 80)?
>

I cannot comment on that. Enabling auto-fill-mode is user preference.

Or let me ask from another point of view: Is it usual to have multiline
> list entries?
>

Yes, if auto-fill-mode is enabled in org-mode.

I know that org is not markdown but I tried some markdown editors to
> test it. They still recognize the linebreak in my first example and
> rendered it "correct" as a 3 item list.
> I checked the syntax docu [1] about it but I couldn't find a hint or
> didn't understand.
>
> Do I understand it correct that the end of a list is marked by an empty
> line?
>

Yes. I think that the list items follow the same rules as Paragraphs [1]
i.e. A list item continues until it sees a blank line. This is identical to
Markdown.

Below, you have 2 list items:

- item 1
- item 2

Below is also 2 list items:

- item 1
  item 1 continued
- item 2

Below is also 2 list items, but the first item has 2 paragraphs:

- item 1

  second paragraph in item 1
- item 2

I hope that helps.

[1]: https://orgmode.org/manual/Paragraphs.html#Paragraphs

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Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> writes:

>> Do I understand it correct that the end of a list is marked by an empty
>> line?
>>
>
> Yes. I think that the list items follow the same rules as Paragraphs [1]
> i.e. A list item continues until it sees a blank line. This is identical to
> Markdown.
>

I think your examples are a bit misleading. A list item continues until
there are _2_ blank lines or until the subsequent line is not indented >=
current list item indentation:

1. list item 1
not a list item because it not indented
2. completely new list

Also,

1. list item 1

   Still a list item - new paragraph inside the list


   Indented, but not a list item because there are two blank lines above

Everything is described in the manual. See https://orgmode.org/manual/Plain-Lists.html#Plain-Lists

Best,
Ihor

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Kaushal Modi]

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On Mon, Apr 4, 2022, 12:06 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I think your examples are a bit misleading.


I have the indentations correct in my three examples.

A list item continues until
> there are _2_ blank lines or until the subsequent line is not indented >=
> current list item indentation:
>

The whole list ends after 2 blank lines. But I didn't demonstrate this rule
in my examples. I was just focusing on plain single new line char vs a
blank line (2 consecutive newlines) in my examples.

1. list item 1
> not a list item because it not indented
> 2. completely new list
>
> Also,
>
> 1. list item 1
>
>    Still a list item - new paragraph inside the list
>
>
>    Indented, but not a list item because there are two blank lines above
>
> Everything is described in the manual. See
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Plain-Lists.html#Plain-Lists


+1

>
>

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Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[c.buhtz]

Dear Ihor,

thanks for your feedback.

Am 04.04.2022 06:06 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> A list item continues until
> there are _2_ blank lines or until the subsequent line is not indented 
> >=
> current list item indentation:

Intereseting. What 2 lines not 1 like in paragraphs. Am I right to say 
that a paragraph ends with one blank line?

> Everything is described in the manual. See
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Plain-Lists.html#Plain-Lists

I showed you a worg-link. Again this is a good example why worg hurts 
more then it helps; newbies. The site looked very official.

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Ihor Radchenko]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> Am 04.04.2022 06:06 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
>> A list item continues until
>> there are _2_ blank lines or until the subsequent line is not indented 
>> >=
>> current list item indentation:
>
> Intereseting. What 2 lines not 1 like in paragraphs. Am I right to say 
> that a paragraph ends with one blank line?

Yes, you are right. Blank line indicates end of a paragraph.

>> Everything is described in the manual. See
>> https://orgmode.org/manual/Plain-Lists.html#Plain-Lists
>
> I showed you a worg-link. Again this is a good example why worg hurts 
> more then it helps; newbies. The site looked very official.

WORG is also official, though serves more like a wiki and not as
official as the manual. In your particular case, we are currently in the
process of updating the WORG syntax page.
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html is an old page explicitly
stating that it is a draft ("Org Syntax (draft)"). I recommend using
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax-edited.html#Items if you want to
check more up-to-date formal syntax description.

Best,
Ihor

Remove old WORG page with Org Syntax (draft) in favour of new syntax page by Timothy (was: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Dear all,

We currently have two versions of Org syntax in WORG:
1. https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html (old, not always accurate)
2. https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax-edited.html (new, being
   discussed in https://orgmode.org/list/871r1g936z.fsf@gmail.com)

The old syntax page is apparently ranked higher by search engines,
creating confusion among users (see the above discussion and the below
message sent off-list).

Maybe we can move org-syntax-edited in place of org-syntax at this
point? I personally think that Tecosaur's version is strictly superior
to the old draft, even though is can still be further improved.

WDYT?

Best,
Ihor

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> Am 04.04.2022 09:44 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
>> WORG is also official, though serves more like a wiki and not as
>> official as the manual. In your particular case, we are currently in 
>> the
>> process of updating the WORG syntax page.
>> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html is an old page explicitly
>> stating that it is a draft ("Org Syntax (draft)"). I recommend using
>> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax-edited.html#Items if you want 
>> to
>> check more up-to-date formal syntax description.
>
> For newbies (and for me) it is unclear why there are two "version" of 
> syntax documents exist. The is confusing.
>
> Minimally the worg-version should point to the "official" org-version 
> and back. When googling org things the worg pages are on top most of the 
> time.

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[c.buhtz]

Thanks to the discussion I now can see and describe my problem clearer.

When using line-fill-mode it does not take the current org list 
indention into account. Because of this org lines like this will appear.

- one entry with a very long text ending in the second line
end
- second entry

This is recognized (e.g. while html export) as two one-item-lists with a 
paragraph between them.

When I press RET myself the point is correct indented but not when it is 
done automatically via line-fill-mode.

Is there a solution for this?

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[c.buhtz]

Am 04.04.2022 09:16 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:
> Am 04.04.2022 06:06 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
>> A list item continues until
>> there are _2_ blank lines or until the subsequent line is not indented 
>> >=
>> current list item indentation:
> 
> Intereseting. What 2 lines not 1 like in paragraphs. Am I right to say
> that a paragraph ends with one blank line?

Sorry, this was misunderstanding.

I would like to know why does a list need 2 blank lines instead of 1? 
For what reason exists this rule?

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Kaushal Modi]

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On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 10:34 AM <c.buhtz@posteo.jp> wrote:

>
> I would like to know why does a list need 2 blank lines instead of 1?
> For what reason exists this rule?
>

- 1 blank line in a list item with create a paragraph break as I showed in
my example earlier. It will not end the list item or list.
- So we need 2 blank lines if we mean to end the list.


Example:

- list 1 item 1

  second paragraph in list 1 item 1
- list 1 item 2


- list 2 item 1 because there are 2 blank lines before this item.

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Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Tim Cross]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> Thanks to the discussion I now can see and describe my problem clearer.
>
> When using line-fill-mode it does not take the current org list indention into
> account. Because of this org lines like this will appear.
>
> - one entry with a very long text ending in the second line
> end
> - second entry
>
> This is recognized (e.g. while html export) as two one-item-lists with a
> paragraph between them.
>
> When I press RET myself the point is correct indented but not when it is done
> automatically via line-fill-mode.
>
> Is there a solution for this?

What is line-fill-mode? It isn't a 'standard' emacs mode, so must be
some add-on?

At any rate, I don't see this problem when using standard
auto-fill-mode. With this mode, when lines wrap (because I've exceeded
the fill column) or if I use C-q to trigger filling, the wrapped lines
are indented correctly so that lists are preserved.

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Tim Cross]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> Am 04.04.2022 09:16 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:
>> Am 04.04.2022 06:06 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
>>> A list item continues until
>>> there are _2_ blank lines or until the subsequent line is not indented  >=
>>> current list item indentation:
>> Intereseting. What 2 lines not 1 like in paragraphs. Am I right to say
>> that a paragraph ends with one blank line?
>
> Sorry, this was misunderstanding.
>
> I would like to know why does a list need 2 blank lines instead of 1? For what
> reason exists this rule?


Main reason is because you might want a list item which consists of
multiple paragraphs. A possible alternative would be to require that
lists are indented and flag a list item has ended either by a new list
item marker or by text which is no longer indented. However, not
everyone wants to be forced to indent their lists and like to have the
list item start in the '0' column so we need some other way to mark the
end and 2 blank lines seems a reasonable compromise.
.

Re: Remove old WORG page with Org Syntax (draft) in favour of new syntax page by Timothy

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> We currently have two versions of Org syntax in WORG:
> 1. https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html (old, not always accurate)
> 2. https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax-edited.html (new, being
>    discussed in https://orgmode.org/list/871r1g936z.fsf@gmail.com)
>
> The old syntax page is apparently ranked higher by search engines,
> creating confusion among users (see the above discussion and the below
> message sent off-list).
>
> Maybe we can move org-syntax-edited in place of org-syntax at this
> point? I personally think that Tecosaur's version is strictly superior
> to the old draft, even though is can still be further improved.
>
> WDYT?

I have no objection. However, I suggest to remove references to DATA,
HEADERS, LABEL, RESNAME, RESULT, SOURCE, SRCNAME and TBLNAME in
org-element-affiliated keywords, which are here for
backward-compatibility reason, but shouldn't appear nowadays (and are
not even mentioned in the manual).

For the same reason, I suggest removing file+sys and file+emacs, which
were (and are AFAIK) planned for removal.

Regards,
-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Remove old WORG page with Org Syntax (draft) in favour of new syntax page by Timothy

[Timothy]

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Hi Nicolas,

> I suggest to remove references to DATA, HEADERS, LABEL, RESNAME, RESULT,
> SOURCE, SRCNAME and TBLNAME in org-element-affiliated keywords, which are here
> for backward-compatibility reason, but shouldn’t appear nowadays (and are not
> even mentioned in the manual).
>
> For the same reason, I suggest removing file+sys and file+emacs, which were
> (and are AFAIK) planned for removal.

Done :)

Should we rename org-syntax to org-syntax-old? Or would you advocate for
something else?

All the best,
Timothy

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[c.buhtz]

Dear Tim

Am 04.04.2022 17:49 schrieb Tim Cross:
> What is line-fill-mode? It isn't a 'standard' emacs mode, so must be
> some add-on?

Sorry this was a "typo".

> At any rate, I don't see this problem when using standard
> auto-fill-mode. With this mode, when lines wrap (because I've exceeded
> the fill column) or if I use C-q to trigger filling, the wrapped lines
> are indented correctly so that lists are preserved.

This is not the case with me.
Please see this screenrecording
https://debianforum.de/forum/gallery/image/3641/source

In the top window you see the relevant lines from my init.el.
In the bottom you see a orgroam capture buffer while I am tiping a 
loreipsum line and exceeding the fill column. It is not intended.

And that is how it looks like in raw org

:PROPERTIES:
:ID:       7fe439ec-c46d-4da5-902a-3ba40cebb25e
:END:
#+title: test
#+date: [2022-04-04 Mo 20:04]
- Lorem ipsum dolro sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam 
nonumy
eirmod tempor invidunt ut
- second item
   second line in second item
-

The first list entry got its newline char automatically via 
auto-fill-mode.
The second entry got its newline by myself via pressing RET.

Re: Multiline list entries / Is auto-fill-mode in org(roam) usual?

[Tim Cross]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> Dear Tim
>
> Am 04.04.2022 17:49 schrieb Tim Cross:
>> What is line-fill-mode? It isn't a 'standard' emacs mode, so must be
>> some add-on?
>
> Sorry this was a "typo".
>
>> At any rate, I don't see this problem when using standard
>> auto-fill-mode. With this mode, when lines wrap (because I've exceeded
>> the fill column) or if I use C-q to trigger filling, the wrapped lines
>> are indented correctly so that lists are preserved.
>
> This is not the case with me.
> Please see this screenrecording
> https://debianforum.de/forum/gallery/image/3641/source
>
> In the top window you see the relevant lines from my init.el.
> In the bottom you see a orgroam capture buffer while I am tiping a 
> loreipsum line and exceeding the fill column. It is not intended.
>
> And that is how it looks like in raw org
>
> :PROPERTIES:
> :ID:       7fe439ec-c46d-4da5-902a-3ba40cebb25e
> :END:
>
> #+title: test
> #+date: [2022-04-04 Mo 20:04]
>
> - Lorem ipsum dolro sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam 
> nonumy
> eirmod tempor invidunt ut
> - second item
>    second line in second item
> -
>
> The first list entry got its newline char automatically via 
> auto-fill-mode.
> The second entry got its newline by myself via pressing RET.

I cannot reproduce your issue using a clean Emacs. I suspect this is
either something incorrect in your init.el file or something caused by
org-roam (which is not part of org-mode).

I note from the screenshot you provided that you are explicitly setting
auto-fill-function. This is not the standard way to turn on
auto-fill-mode and it could break mode specific settings for
auto-filling. Instead, you should call auto-fill-mode in the appropriate
mode specific hook (as specified in the emacs manual).

I would suggest you try reproducing your issue in a clean Emacs e.g.

emacs -Q

open an org file

do M-x auto-fill-mode

do M-x org-capture

to start a data capture

do M-x auto-fill-mode to enable auto-filling in the capture buffer

Add list items to the capture buffer, some long, some short and let
auto-fill do the filling

complete the capture

When I do this, the lists are formatted correctly and long lines are
wrapped with the correct item indentation.

This is with

GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.30,
cairo version 1.16.0) of 2022-04-05
Org mode version 9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-25-gaf6f12 @ /usr/local/share/emacs/29.0.50/lisp/org/)

Re: Remove old WORG page with Org Syntax (draft) in favour of new syntax page by Timothy

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Should we rename org-syntax to org-syntax-old? Or would you advocate for
> something else?

Would keeping the old org-syntax version benefit anyone? I think it only
creates confusion and there is no extra information in the old version
that is not available in the new syntax document.

I am in favour of removing the old version completely and putting the
new document at the old address
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html

The old version will remain accessible via git logs if absolutely
necessary.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Remove old WORG page with Org Syntax (draft) in favour of new syntax page by Timothy

[Timothy]

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Hi Ihor,

> I am in favour of removing the old version completely and putting the
> new document at the old address
> <https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html>
>
> The old version will remain accessible via git logs if absolutely
> necessary.

That sounds good to me.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: Remove old WORG page with Org Syntax (draft) in favour of new syntax page by Timothy

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

>> I am in favour of removing the old version completely and putting the
>> new document at the old address
>> <https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html>
>>
>> The old version will remain accessible via git logs if absolutely
>> necessary.
>
> That sounds good to me.

Note that I don't have write access to WORG. I guess you or Nicolas can
commit the change.

P.S. Christian also mentioned his confusion that both org-syntax and Org
manual contain syntax descriptions and it is unclear which document to
use. We may add a paragraph to org-syntax document mentioning that it
is very technical and aims for developers + reference Org manual for
ordinary users.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Remove old WORG page with Org Syntax (draft) in favour of new syntax page by Timothy

[Timothy]

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Hi Ihor,

> Note that I don’t have write access to WORG. I guess you or Nicolas can
> commit the change.

Done

> P.S. Christian also mentioned his confusion that both org-syntax and Org
> manual contain syntax descriptions and it is unclear which document to
> use. We may add a paragraph to org-syntax document mentioning that it
> is very technical and aims for developers + reference Org manual for
> ordinary users.

I’ve added:

      This is intended as a technical document for developers and
      those particularly interested in the syntax. Most users will be better
      served by [the Org manual].

to the intro.

All the best,
Timothy


[the Org manual] <https://orgmode.org/manual/>