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* Instead of pcase
@ 2023-11-16  3:04 Richard Stallman
  2023-11-16  7:37 ` Philip Kaludercic
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 342+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2023-11-16  3:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

`pcase' is a big and unnecessary complication on Emacs Lisp.
I think its presence worse overall.

One can easily think of `pcase' as "just another feature", like each
of the thousands of other predefined functions and macros in Emacs
Lisp.  But that picture is incorrect for `pcase', because it does not
count the cost of `pcase' in complexity.

What makes `pcase' such a complication is that it introduces an
additional "little language" that duplicates the functionality of part
of Emacs Lisp.  Even worse, that little language is so concise it is
downright cryptic.

I can see why people want something along those lines.  Using `cond'
and `let' to do these jobs feels long-winded and cumbersome; they were
not designed to make this easy.  So we wish for something to make such
code more concise.

`pcase' does indeed make such code more concise, but it takes that
conciseness to an extreme by defining its own cryptic little language,
That is going too far.

Using `pcase' in your own private code concerns you alone.  Using it
in released packages that others use but others rarely change or study
is not a big deal for the community.  However, putting `pcase' into
many packages imposes this cryptic little language on all of us.

There are other little languages in Emacs, but most of them are
limited to special high-level purposes -- which means that hardly any
of us need even be aware of them.

For instance, there is a little language called "quail" which is used
for concisely defining input methods.  Its specific purpose is a
high-level purpose.  If you don't work on input methods you never need
to learn quail.

It's just the opposite for `pcase' -- its specific purpose is a
low-level purpose, so it could appear in any part of the code of
Emacs, The burden of its complexity can fall on any or all of us.

Those of you who are fans of `pcase' may not recognize the cost it
imposes on the Emacs Lisp language.  You paid that cost already,
perhaps a few years ago, and perhaps you enjoy each new language
construct you learn.  Perhaps, for you, the more complexity of
features to be learned, the better.

But don't argue that this cost does not exist, simply because it
doesn't feel like a burden to you.

So...

I'm looking at adapting some of the features of `pcase' into other
constructs, so as to make type-discrimination code more concise than
in old-fashioned Lisp, but _not_ so concise as to be cryptic and
burdensome.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 342+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2024-02-03 16:52 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 342+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2023-11-16  3:04 Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-16  7:37 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 17:18   ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 17:44     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:16       ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-17  8:54         ` Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc (was: Instead of pcase) Ihor Radchenko
2023-11-25  4:03           ` Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc Stefan Monnier
2023-11-16 19:19       ` Instead of pcase Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17  8:02         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:21     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 18:39       ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:47         ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 18:51           ` T.V Raman
2023-11-18  3:04           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 12:23             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:02               ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-19 17:59                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:31                   ` Eric Abrahamsen
2023-11-25  4:23                     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27  3:12                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 21:15                   ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-20  1:15                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 15:32                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:57                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 17:14                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27  3:09                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 12:21                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-29  3:42                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29 12:56                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01  3:17                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  2:44                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28 12:39                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-30  3:37                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01  0:18                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01  5:51                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-10  8:34                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10  9:35                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10  9:53                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10 10:35                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10 11:05                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-01  7:21                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  8:03                                     ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02  3:21                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 18:14                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-24 18:35                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27  3:14                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  2:46                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  6:35                               ` Nikita Domnitskii
2023-11-30  3:37                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 21:37                                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 15:14                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-10 16:27                               ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 20:28                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-10 21:13                                   ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-12  3:43                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12  6:46                                     ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 15:18                                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-14  3:24                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-14 16:52                                         ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16  4:24                                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  5:04                                             ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16 18:30                                               ` Bob Rogers
2023-12-18  4:13                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12 19:24                                     ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 21:36                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-12 22:25                                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-13  1:32                                     ` Adam Porter
2023-12-14  3:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  4:09                                         ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18 10:08                                           ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21  4:20                                             ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21  9:50                                               ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21 16:01                                                 ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21 16:20                                                   ` João Távora
2023-12-24  3:56                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-24  3:57                                                 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21 14:10                                               ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-24  3:57                                                 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:14                                                   ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19  3:49                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-19 12:13                                             ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-22  3:14                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-22  7:27                                                 ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-25  3:41                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 12:32                                                     ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-27  4:54                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-27 14:34                                                         ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-29  3:52                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:49                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:57                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05  4:23                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 14:33                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06 22:25                                                                       ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2024-01-08  3:45                                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:20                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2024-01-09  2:53                                                                           ` map seq and radix-tree-leaf, in pcase Richard Stallman
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-10 13:03                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-13  3:50                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13  6:32                                                                             ` cond* Adam Porter
2024-01-16  3:31                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13 19:47                                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-15  3:13                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:13                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-01 16:26                                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-03  3:36                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-03 16:52                                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:48                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06  4:31                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:09                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:26                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:50                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06  4:31                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:13                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:35                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19 15:53                                             ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21  4:22                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-21  4:22                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  4:09                                         ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  5:41                                           ` cond* Adam Porter
2023-12-21  4:20                                             ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  6:57                                         ` Adam Porter
2023-12-20  3:28                                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-20 10:52                                             ` Adam Porter
2023-12-23  2:53                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-23  2:53                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:26                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-27  4:54                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-28 13:05                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-30  3:20                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:33                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03  4:13                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 16:08                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05  4:23                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:04                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:42                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-13  4:58                                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-11  3:31                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 13:49             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  2:42               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-21  5:14                 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-21  5:34                 ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-21 11:11                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 15:38                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  3:00                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  3:34                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  4:30                     ` Jim Porter
2023-11-24  7:45                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-25  3:08                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-24 17:01                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24 17:29                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-28  2:44                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 19:14                     ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-30 19:26                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-30 20:30                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01  6:24                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 15:47                             ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:07                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 20:27                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-12-02 13:24                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02 13:51                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-04  3:11                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-03  3:28                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 20:47                         ` João Távora
2023-12-01  6:31                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  7:07                             ` Yuri Khan
2023-12-01  8:10                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  9:04                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-04  3:08                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 11:58                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-04 12:35                                       ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 13:20                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-04 17:46                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-07  2:48                                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-07 17:42                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-09  4:02                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 18:17                                           ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 12:37                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-08  3:54                                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01 10:13                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01  8:35                             ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-01 10:02                             ` João Távora
2023-12-01 11:52                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 12:48                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 14:44                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:28                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 18:40                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:45                                       ` João Távora
2024-01-09  5:36                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2023-12-01 13:28                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:25                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2024-01-09  5:33                               ` Stefan Kangas
2024-01-09 10:43                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:04                             ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:33                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-02  3:20                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02  8:41                         ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-02  9:02                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-02 10:14                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-02 17:02                               ` Barry Fishman
2023-12-02 20:25                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-03  4:30                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-05  2:58                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-05  3:36                             ` chad
2023-12-08  3:53                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 14:33                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-04  3:11                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 18:01                         ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04  3:11                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 12:27                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-03  3:27                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25  4:15                 ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-27  3:12                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 18:06                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:49         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 23:41     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  7:34       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-26  3:17   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:06 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 17:31   ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:26     ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 18:40       ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 19:13         ` Jim Porter
2023-11-20  3:06   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-20 14:35     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:57       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:20 ` Spencer Baugh
2023-11-16 20:16   ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-16 21:37     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-11-25  4:34     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-25  8:53       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18  3:03   ` combining cond and let, to replace pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 11:20     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 11:43       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:16         ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 13:21           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:32             ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 14:41               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 15:27                 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 15:29                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 16:03           ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 16:59             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:29               ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 18:35                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:50         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:08           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:52             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:45               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 15:35                 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 16:37                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21  8:33                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-21  8:39                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:59             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:53                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 12:04       ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 18:10       ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-25  4:45         ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-28 15:31           ` João Távora
2023-11-28 15:55             ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-19 21:36       ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-11-21 16:14         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:08     ` Axel Forsman
2023-11-21 15:53     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:58     ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-23  7:02       ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-26  3:14         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 17:07           ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-27 17:59             ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-28 14:25               ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-23  8:58       ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-26  3:14         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  3:08       ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-24  3:26         ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-25  2:59         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25  5:11       ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27  3:11         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 18:13           ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27 18:49             ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-27 23:12               ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-29  3:41               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29  3:40             ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27  3:11         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 18:11 ` Instead of pcase Emanuel Berg
2023-11-16 19:26   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 22:16     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  7:30       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17  8:09         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17 12:16           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18  6:26             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-18  7:21               ` Po Lu
2023-11-18  7:41                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 18:22 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 22:55   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  5:36   ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 11:48     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 12:50       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:05         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:41           ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 14:44             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:52           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:58             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 15:14               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:04                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 18:30                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:51                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:49                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21  2:43               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 14:14         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 15:09           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 14:52             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:29       ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 15:20         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 15:29         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 23:43           ` Po Lu
2023-11-21  1:09             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  1:49               ` Po Lu
2023-11-21  1:59                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  4:04                   ` Po Lu
2023-11-21 11:27                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 11:49                       ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 23:45           ` Jose E. Marchesi
2023-11-20 23:54             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-21  2:01             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-22  2:59               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-22  3:29                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-22 11:58                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24  3:38                   ` Richard Stallman

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