From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:21:09 -0400 Message-ID: <87o77ng4yy.fsf@dancol.org> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> <746FE961-37C5-4387-8274-7D90908EE2D6@dancol.org> <8734p3219c.fsf@yahoo.com> <867cefeo1w.fsf@gnu.org> <8734p03e94.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <867cec9ccl.fsf@gnu.org> <877D0EA4-CAC1-4FA3-8102-8AC7446AFAED@dancol.org> <87msn7x058.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6114"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , Jeremy Bryant , stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 26 16:21:57 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTX1-0001Lt-W6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 16:21:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTWV-00012v-If; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:21:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTWR-00012b-RJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:21:19 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTWQ-0007Sk-A7; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:21:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References:In-Reply-To: Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Ho5SIsBrcfR3tK7dSsb7ABnzA80TSfwrQ28zB+MXLfU=; b=N0nBDVZ75cnmUi12NkbVlmbDz7 EC6vDbriIMglv5s927gM6ECUc2Lq6j+rGcQJq13i/qCFyRGXF2vLeoX8zN0ZPoluQ2wG4i20KMC4l K4zWxiybNXMkedbsUwY/1uv6ypzUb/zCZRQYPKZtK5r6ez6ahsAtRv+PPIwtTKSk5jDokiyLGlNGn of6UJWDphm9ZTzIjqAAXljlGRxUfLECzkWURHboZB82MTX2Iarb6t0D9CyR+aD8oUisKCZhLGvfMp 8nEP+vvkMhyw0ZlHOw/+2o1DNhCWRqsBHOar4BpQktrKGKYTrFlrS9F1BBaGZ0UqUynGN3OaP7pEA IucVz0Yg==; Original-Received: from 2603-9001-4203-1ab2-7b3d-25c6-9fb0-bbbc.inf6.spectrum.com ([2603:9001:4203:1ab2:7b3d:25c6:9fb0:bbbc]:35994 helo=localhost) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTWK-0002Bc-TK; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:21:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87msn7x058.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Wed, 26 Jun 2024 22:13:23 +0800") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1; envelope-from=dancol@dancol.org; helo=dancol.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320695 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Daniel Colascione writes: > >> There is no "waste". We've gone over this at length. People who want >> to bind these keys can bind them still. Nobody is hurt by default >> bindings being present, and all the arguments I've seen against these >> bindings are also arguments against having default bindings at all. > > [...] > >> There's no need to augment the binding function with a new >> parameter. Anyone who can use the new parameter can just bind the keys >> directly. The point is that out of the box Emacs should be useful and >> useable, that the lack of default bindings for windmove makes it less >> so, and that there's little downside to adding these bindings. > > "I was not convinced by you, and therefore you must all agree with ME." > >> Because it's useful to navigate windows positionally as well as >> temporally. Other-window often has unpredictable effects and >> navigating with windmove DWIM. > > Most users will for this purpose use the mouse, if there is really such > a number of windows that navigating with other-window is impractical. That Emacs, of all programs, is mouse-centric and therefore needs no keybindings for certain functions is a curious claim. > I'm disposed to say that this situation seldom appears in practice, or > we should have received proposals to grant windmove default keybindings > much earlier. Another curious argument is that a problem X isn't actually a problem because, if it were, it would have been solved already. That's true only in the limit as time goes to infinity. > And don't let's be given a lecture as to the inherent > incompatibility of the mouse with Emacs's ethos or some such. What you're doing here is called "poisoning the well" and is another invalid form of discourse. Making certain functionality mouse-only is, in fact, contrary to longstanding tradition.