From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:10:35 -0900 Organization: __________ Message-ID: <87mzsz7bhg.fld@barrow.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111255994 30275 80.91.229.2 (19 Mar 2005 18:13:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:13:14 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 19 19:13:14 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCiRd-0000By-PT for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:13:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCiiN-0007q7-4B for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:30:23 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: gnus 5.10.6/XEmacs 21.4.15/Linux 2.6.5 Cancel-Lock: sha1:0d/Jtz0OkswJMM817PqORqU9i+w= Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Original-Lines: 67 Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:129422 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:24977 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:24977 jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote: >PT writes: > >> This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new >> users: >> >> F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc. What an absurd set of bindings... ;-) Mine are F1 for help, F2 shows function key bindings, and all of the rest change depending on the mode. (And doing it that way was a mistake on my part, because I *never* use F1 to get help, so that is where the function key binding list should have gone. Some day I'll fix that...) >Where do these come from? What users would be familiar with them? >In every application I've come across recently, F3 is "next match" >for search operations. > >The problem with any suggestion like this, is that the idea of a >single "standard" set of keybindings is mythical. Nooooo! The *EMACS* keybindings are the only ones that make any sense at all for an Emacs editor. >Beyond a few very >basic bindings, there is no genuine standard. People come to Emacs >from any number of inferior text editors, and the way to make them >happy is an emulation mode for the editor they are coming from. We If newbies want to use inferior editors, they should stay with what they have. If they want to learn how to use a superior editor, *that* is exactly what they should do. Trying to dumb down Emacs is not only dumb, it is *impossible* as far as making it match every single one of the multitudes of inferior text editors. Emacs cannot be all of them at once. And I just fail to see how an emulator for an inferior text editor is in any way helping a newbie to learn Emacs. They don't need to be retaining old, bad, habits. What they need is a good crib sheet, with all of the most useful commands on it, so that they can start using them. That's the way to *learn* commands, and learning commands is the way to learn Emacs. >already have emulation modes for several other text editors, can you >suggest (or better, contribute) other popular ones that are missing? My first emacs was Perfect Writer on Kaypro in the early 1980's. I put a sheet of paper over the (significant) unused areas on the keyboard, cutout slots to match the keys, and trimmed it to fit the edges. I taped that down solid, and then hand wrote as many key bindings as I could on it. Soon enough there were a bunch that I didn't need help remembering, and I made a new one. Each time I did that it was a little neater and had more key bindings listed. Eventually I had something like 200 (i.e., it had virtually every command not positively memorized). Perhaps a year later I didn't really need it. Emacs is way too complex, at least for me, to ever remember anything like all possible commands. But still, learning a set of 300-500 commands is 1) not trivial, 2) *very* useful, 3) can't be done using some other set of commands instead. -- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com