From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: please make line-move-visual nil Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 13:22:02 +0900 Message-ID: <87my9ff11x.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <23521879.post@talk.nabble.com> <7b501d5c0905131659r1d79ec56s5a59f76e4713edf9@mail.gmail.com> <23532135.post@talk.nabble.com> <87tz3odq3l.fsf@iki.fi> <6fa54e4e0905140237g1a4483e6w179fb6d19b30550e@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1242360966 15641 80.91.229.12 (15 May 2009 04:16:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 04:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Teemu Likonen , garyo , Antoine Levitt , Emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 15 06:15:58 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1M4opw-0002C5-DW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 06:15:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60701 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M4opv-00074h-Pw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 00:15:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M4opq-00074P-RY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 00:15:50 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M4opm-00074D-II for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 00:15:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=60083 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M4opm-00074A-FA for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 00:15:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:34902) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1M4opl-0004Zr-Nt for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 00:15:46 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF915820D; Fri, 15 May 2009 13:15:42 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E7531A4583; Fri, 15 May 2009 13:22:02 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 8.0.12-devo-585 under 21.5 (beta28) "fuki" 83e35df20028+ XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:110882 Archived-At: I think a better approach to context-dependent behavior would be buffer-local. Buffers where long lines are very common, and modes where newline is paragraph end, etc, should set line-move-visual on. Programming modes, table modes, etc should not. Lennart Borgman writes: > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Antoine Levitt wrote: > > I think line-move-visual is great for common usage. It seems to me the > > problem of users with this new setting is mainly in keyboard macros. Why not > > disable line-move-visual when typing or replaying a keyboard macro, since in > > most case the user want the action to be independent of the line it is on ? > > Kind of a hack, but there's clearly two usages of the line move commands > > here. > > I have also suggested turning off line-move-visual when handling > macros. I can't see any reason not to do that. The whole point of a macro is "what you did is what you get", but now people have to think about how behavior is going to change from when they just did to when they create the macro. That's going to reduce the utility of macros. One of the things that makes Emacs the great (and unusual) environment that it is is this *deliberate* blurring of the lines between UI and API, and between API and implementation. Because of the rigid nature of APIs, this necessarily causes a certain amount of rigidity in both UI and implementation. I don't think it's a good idea to draw a line between the UI and the API that way. Instead, say "I'm sorry, oldtimer, but this *is* a much better default behavior for most users most of the time, and if it bothers your ancient macros, switch it off." The rigidity is not a good thing, but please don't undermine the basic greatness of Emacs because you dislike it.