From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bug#7260: 24.0.50; DEL screwed up Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:53:34 +0900 Message-ID: <87mxq5jcj5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87sjzyp6u3.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83eibi84rw.fsf@gnu.org> <87wrp9jzjr.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <878w1ppexn.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1287839562 30982 80.91.229.12 (23 Oct 2010 13:12:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:12:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 23 15:12:41 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1P9dtl-0007bl-PP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:12:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55260 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P9dtk-0004nC-Rp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:12:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=45916 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P9dte-0004n3-LD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:12:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P9dtd-00077b-KA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:12:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [130.158.254.170] (port=37103 helo=dmail01.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P9dtb-00076k-Si; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:12:28 -0400 Original-Received: from imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp (unknown [130.158.254.130]) by dmail01.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3C5E0967; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:52:19 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp (imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss71 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF842AF543; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:52:01 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mgmt1.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (unknown [130.158.97.223]) by imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9552AF542; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:52:01 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt1.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3092C3FA0517; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:52:01 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3EDA51A3C36; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:53:34 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <878w1ppexn.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.93a under 21.5 (beta29) "garbanzo" ed3b274cc037 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:132018 Archived-At: David Kastrup writes: > > It has been addressed. The only way this *can* be addressed is to > > make a decision one way or the other, and that's been done. > > Uh no. We are programmers. Consequently, a _lot_ of work has been > invested in making transient-mark-mode less noisome, both before making > it the default, and in the aftermath. Sure. Most of those changes simply moved it closer to zmacs-regions, so that now I personally find it quite usable. :-) But I'm definitely not talking about delsel-mode which is currently not on by default in XEmacs. I'm talking about the current design of t-m-m mode, which happens to fit my usage patterns well, and fits others' rather poorly. Lars and I cannot both have the default we want. > So there certainly is more to address than whether to turn it on by > default, and that is being done. Sure, but in fact a lot of people who use computers like (fsvo "like" including "are used to from other systems") exactly the behavior that Lars is objecting to, which (IIRC) according to the words he wrote was C-x C-x activating the region, although he may have really been concerned (at least partially) with the interaction with delsel-mode. > > FWIW transient-mark-mode (actually, zmacs-mode) ON has been the > > default in XEmacs since 1998 or so, and the complaints took about 12 > > months to die out. My impression at the time was that a majority of > > the complainers tried the new behavior and decided it was acceptable > > (may be biased, because I'm in that group), and a large minority > > decided to turn it off at initialization and stopped complaining. New > > users never complain about it AFAICR. > > I don't like the "implement and leave it" attitude. It wasn't an implement it and leave it attitude. In the "t-m-m by default" controversy, Emacs people have made a lot of suggestions (most of which I think are wrong-headed, but they're worth trying -- there's a lot I don't know yet about UI design, including some of the big principles). But in the case of XEmacs, the naysayers made no constructive suggestions, just "oh God, turn it OFF! Now!" Had they made suggestions, they would have been considered, I suppose. > Moving a controversial feature to a less controversial state causes > a lot of bile and bickering on the Emacs developer list. Sometimes that's a waste of time. IMO, t-m-m is one. It's been tuned by its users over a decade and through a rather heated controversy at the time it was decided to make it default, and it's very similar to zmacs-regions which has been similarly tuned over two or three decades. People who don't like it should probably just turn it off -- some things don't admit much improvement, at least not at reasonable levels of developer effort. > It makes the list a less friendly place, and Emacs itself a more > friendly place. I liked TECO Emacs's response to ESC ESC ESC, personally. Made me feel like one of the team, sorta like getting a wedgie in the locker room....