* button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map @ 2013-02-21 17:04 Sam Steingold 2013-02-21 18:29 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Sam Steingold @ 2013-02-21 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel IMO, button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map because whenever it is used, the map which inherits from it is immediately subject to suppress-keymap. If button-buffer-map inherits from special-mode-map, then this is done automatically, and, additionally, some useful bindings are inherited. I will commit a patch to this effect unless someone objects. -- Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000 http://www.childpsy.net/ http://ffii.org http://jihadwatch.org http://dhimmi.com http://iris.org.il http://www.PetitionOnline.com/tap12009/ Only the mediocre are always at their best. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* RE: button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map 2013-02-21 17:04 button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map Sam Steingold @ 2013-02-21 18:29 ` Drew Adams 2013-02-21 18:42 ` Sam Steingold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2013-02-21 18:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: sds, emacs-devel > IMO, button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map because > whenever it is used, the map which inherits from it is immediately > subject to suppress-keymap. If button-buffer-map inherits from > special-mode-map, then this is done automatically, and, > additionally, some useful bindings are inherited. > > I will commit a patch to this effect unless someone objects. I'm no expert on this, but that does not sound right to me. Different libraries use `button-mode-map' differently. E.g. `apropos-mode-map' is a _copy_ of `button-mode-map' and it has `special-mode-map' as its parent. And `help-mode-map' has as its parent a keymap composed from `button-buffer-map' and `special-mode-map'. It seems to me that if some particular map needs the characteristics of both `button-buffer-map' and `special-mode-map' then it should explicitly adopt them both, e.g. as `help-mode-map' does. Why assume that the characteristics of `special-mode-map' (e.g. keys) are appropriate for all uses of `button-buffer-map'? What's really gained by this additional coupling? IMO, there has been too liberal a use of `special-mode-map' recently, which has sometimes required later backing out some such coupled behavior (e.g. keys). In general, this alone should be a red flag (watch out!): "and additionally, some useful bindings are inherited". One person's or one library's handy convenience is another's obstacle that must be overcome. What if those "useful bindings" are not appropriate for your mode that inherits from `button-buffer-map'? Why not keep these maps separate, and let code couple/compose them explicitly when appropriate? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map 2013-02-21 18:29 ` Drew Adams @ 2013-02-21 18:42 ` Sam Steingold 2013-02-21 19:26 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Sam Steingold @ 2013-02-21 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-devel > * Drew Adams <qerj.nqnzf@benpyr.pbz> [2013-02-21 10:29:49 -0800]: > >> IMO, button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map because >> whenever it is used, the map which inherits from it is immediately >> subject to suppress-keymap. If button-buffer-map inherits from >> special-mode-map, then this is done automatically, and, >> additionally, some useful bindings are inherited. >> >> I will commit a patch to this effect unless someone objects. > > Why assume that the characteristics of `special-mode-map' (e.g. keys) > are appropriate for all uses of `button-buffer-map'? Because special-mode-map is supposed to be appropriate for any non-self-insert buffer, and button-buffer-map is only used in such buffers, so, whenever a map inherits from button-buffer-map but not special-mode-map, it can be assumed to be an oversight. > Different libraries use `button-mode-map' differently. E.g. `apropos-mode-map' > is a _copy_ of `button-mode-map' and it has `special-mode-map' as its parent. > And `help-mode-map' has as its parent a keymap composed from `button-buffer-map' > and `special-mode-map'. These look like workarounds for the bug of button-buffer-map not inheriting from special-mode-map. > What's really gained by this additional coupling? Simplicity and clarity of code and intent. -- Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000 http://www.childpsy.net/ http://jihadwatch.org http://truepeace.org http://www.memritv.org http://camera.org http://thereligionofpeace.com Why use Windows, when there are Doors? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* RE: button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map 2013-02-21 18:42 ` Sam Steingold @ 2013-02-21 19:26 ` Drew Adams 2013-02-21 19:57 ` Sam Steingold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2013-02-21 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: sds; +Cc: emacs-devel > > Why assume that the characteristics of `special-mode-map' > > (e.g. keys) are appropriate for all uses of `button-buffer-map'? > > Because special-mode-map is supposed to be appropriate for any > non-self-insert buffer, Where does it say so? In any case, I take issue with such a claim. It is doubtful that there is ANY given set of key bindings or ANY particular predefined behavior that is appropriate for ALL non-self-insert buffers. (Except the empty set of keys and empty behavior.) `special-mode-map' certainly does not fill that bill. > and button-buffer-map is only used in such buffers, What buffers - non-self-insert buffers? Are you claiming also that b-b-map is appropriate for ALL buffers where keys are not self-inserting? That too I disagree with. `button-buffer-map' is defined only as a "Keymap useful for buffers containing buttons." There is nothing in that straightforward definition that implies that every buffer that has buttons must be non-self-insert. Whether buttons make sense for a given buffer is not dependent on whether the buffer allows some keys to self-insert. > so, whenever a map inherits from button-buffer-map but not > special-mode-map, it can be assumed to be an oversight. Your logic is sound: N => S and B => N, therefore B => S: 1. Assume: non-self-insert buffer implies s-m-map is appropriate. 2. Assume: b-b-map implies non-self-insert buffer. 3. Therefore, any map that inherits from b-b-m should also inherit from s-m-map. The logic is fine. What I reject are the assertions, #1 and #2. > > What's really gained by this additional coupling? > > Simplicity and clarity of code and intent. The intent of `button-buffer-map' is clear, and that stated intention does not jibe with the interpretation you want to give it. Sorry. `button-buffer-map' is a keymap for buffers where buttons are appropriate. Nothing more, nothing less. Up to the person who uses b-b-map to decide whether buttons are appropriate in any given context. `button-buffer-map' does not imply `special-mode-map'. And it does not imply that the buffer does not allow any self-insertion. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map 2013-02-21 19:26 ` Drew Adams @ 2013-02-21 19:57 ` Sam Steingold 2013-02-21 21:13 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Sam Steingold @ 2013-02-21 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel > * Drew Adams <qerj.nqnzf@benpyr.pbz> [2013-02-21 11:26:36 -0800]: > > Your logic is sound: N => S and B => N, therefore B => S: > > 1. Assume: non-self-insert buffer implies s-m-map is appropriate. > > 2. Assume: b-b-map implies non-self-insert buffer. > > 3. Therefore, any map that inherits from b-b-m should also inherit from s-m-map. > > The logic is fine. What I reject are the assertions, #1 and #2. The vehemence of your objection is stunning. I am no longer arguing in favor of my proposal, but out of curiosity: 1. can you give an example of a non-self-insert buffer where any of the special-mode-map bindings are not appropriate? 2. can you give an example of a button-buffer-map usage in a self-insert buffer? PS. my practical rationale was that I bound a key in special-mode-map and was surprised that the binding was not present in *Buffer List*. -- Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000 http://www.childpsy.net/ http://dhimmi.com http://memri.org http://ffii.org http://pmw.org.il http://thereligionofpeace.com http://jihadwatch.org Our business is run on trust. We trust you will pay in advance. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* RE: button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map 2013-02-21 19:57 ` Sam Steingold @ 2013-02-21 21:13 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2013-02-21 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: sds, emacs-devel > The vehemence of your objection is stunning. What vehemence? Another unwarranted assumption. I just disagree with the assumptions you made and the proposal based on them. I am not vehement about that disagreement. And I mean nothing personal by my disagreement. You explicitly solicited objections (good), and I objected. And the first thing I said was that I am no expert on this, which is the case. AFAICT, there is no necessary reason for such a change, and not even any good reason for it. And there is every reason to keep independent things uncoupled. But I am open to being convinced otherwise. And I'm only one voice. > I am no longer arguing in favor of my proposal, Why not? Don't stop just because it met one objection. > but out of curiosity: > > 1. can you give an example of a non-self-insert buffer where > any of the special-mode-map bindings are not appropriate? Don't have to. Can you show that no such buffer can exist? But yes - Dired. Perhaps you recall this thread that you started? http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-09/msg00015.html See also: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=12311. Some keys in s-m-map, past, current, or future, might not necessarily be appropriate for some particular non-self-insert buffer. In the case of that thread, the argument was over whether `z' was appropriate. It is irrelevant to the current discussion whether it is still part of s-m-map or whether Dired uses s-m-map. Dired mode (not Wdired) has a non-self-insert buffer, and s-m-map is not appropriate for it (see the second URL above). The point is that there is no necessary dependence of non-self-insert buffers upon s-m-map. In this case, BTW, the doc string is no help. The s-m-map doc string just punts to "special mode", and that just punts nowhere (not good). A user needs to consult (elisp) `Basic Major Modes' to find out anything of substance about what a "special mode" is. It is a mode whose buffer text is "produced specially by Emacs, rather than directly from a file". That's pretty broad. The explanation adds that the buffer is set by `special-mode' to read-only (which is different from non-self-insertion, BTW). Whether all read-only or (your question) all non-self-insertion buffers must or should also be special could be debated. I would argue no. For one thing, the criterion of being "produced specially by Emacs, rather than directly from a file" is important. But though necessary, neither criterion is sufficient to _require_ special mode. You can use special mode for such a buffer, but nothing requires you to. > 2. can you give an example of a button-buffer-map usage in a > self-insert buffer? Ditto. Things should not be coupled unless they need to be. Occam. Stating this is not an expression of vehemence. > PS. my practical rationale was that I bound a key in special-mode-map > and was surprised that the binding was not present in *Buffer List*. That's easily remedied, no? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-02-21 21:13 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2013-02-21 17:04 button-buffer-map should inherit from special-mode-map Sam Steingold 2013-02-21 18:29 ` Drew Adams 2013-02-21 18:42 ` Sam Steingold 2013-02-21 19:26 ` Drew Adams 2013-02-21 19:57 ` Sam Steingold 2013-02-21 21:13 ` Drew Adams
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