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From: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: John Wiegley <johnw@newartisans.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: On the subject of Git, Bazaar, and the future of Emacs development
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:26 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87mwtd10yp.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83mwtef9f5.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 04 Apr 2013 21:16:46 +0300")

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: John Wiegley <johnw@newartisans.com>
>> As a data point: if Emacs does decide on Git, I'll become a more
>> active contributor again; if it doesn't, I have other things to do.
>> Bzr/Mercurial is enough of a "joy-stealing" barrier that -- like now
>> -- I would not be interested in submitting my work upstream.  And
>> this same situation is true for some others as well, as evidenced by
>> voices on this mailing list.
>
>I'm very sad to hear that, because I think it is improper for
>contributors to put up such an ultimatum for a project.  I hope that
>people who contribute to Emacs (and any other project) are first and
>foremost interested in advancing the project, and any other
>considerations are secondary.

No ultimatum here; John made a statement about a development barrier.

If Emacs stored its master repository on punch cards and the only way to
contribute were to send in new cards by snail mail, some developers
would post saying "I'd like to be more involved, but the snail mail
thing is joy-stealing barrier for me."

Obviously that's a contrived example, but it is different from what John
said only in degree.

>At least that's how I reacted when Gawk and Make switched to Git: I
>gnashed my teeth and adapted.  I hope so will you.

All developers do cost-benefit analysis when deciding where to spend
their time.  The fact that your calculus differs from John's doesn't
mean you're doing anything qualitatively different from him.  Think of
all the free software projects you like & use but don't contribute to,
even when you've found a bug.  You're engaging in the same calculation:
the entry cost of fixing that bug is too high, so you choose to spend
your time elsewhere.  But sometimes, you might mail a project and say
"If your build process [or whatever] were easier, I'd be more likely to
contribute."  This would be no more an ultimatum than what John said.

-K



  parent reply	other threads:[~2013-04-05 14:55 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 200+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2013-03-26 19:38 On the subject of Git, Bazaar, and the future of Emacs development John Wiegley
2013-03-26 19:42 ` Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
2013-03-27  1:32   ` Stefan Monnier
2013-04-02  0:31   ` Barry Warsaw
2013-04-02  8:56     ` Timur Aydin
2013-04-02 13:30       ` Teemu Likonen
2013-04-02 16:38         ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-02 17:02           ` Teemu Likonen
2013-04-02 17:24             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-02 17:44               ` Teemu Likonen
2013-04-02 16:36       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-02 13:19     ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-04-02 14:54     ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-04-02 15:13       ` Teemu Likonen
2013-04-02 15:45         ` Barry Warsaw
2013-04-02 16:21           ` Teemu Likonen
2013-04-02 17:12           ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-03  8:00             ` Miles Bader
2013-04-02 15:16       ` Christopher Schmidt
2013-04-02 15:47         ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-04-02 15:42       ` Barry Warsaw
2013-03-26 20:55 ` Karl Fogel
2013-03-26 23:00   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-03-27  4:02 ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-27  6:38   ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-03-27  8:43   ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-27  9:13     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-27 15:49       ` Allen S. Rout
2013-03-27 16:32         ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-27 18:55           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-27 17:15     ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-27 17:56       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-03-27 18:32         ` John Yates
2013-03-27 20:25           ` Werner LEMBERG
2013-03-28  4:20           ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28  5:33             ` Leo Liu
2013-03-28  7:53             ` joakim
2013-03-28 12:21               ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-03-28 18:59               ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 21:10             ` Karl Fogel
2013-03-29  3:48               ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-29  3:53                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-03-29 18:05                 ` Karl Fogel
2013-03-29 21:12                   ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28  4:20         ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 12:26           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-03-28 15:11             ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28 18:58             ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 19:26               ` John Wiegley
2013-03-28 19:49                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29  3:47                 ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 19:44               ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-27 18:48       ` Allen S. Rout
2013-03-27 20:27         ` Josh
2013-04-02  0:26       ` Barry Warsaw
2013-04-02  3:24         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-04-02  8:25           ` chad
2013-04-02 16:35             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-02 17:57               ` chad
2013-04-02 18:02                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-02 18:12                   ` chad
2013-04-02 12:30         ` Jose E. Marchesi
2013-04-02 14:02           ` Barry Warsaw
2013-04-02 15:19           ` Jay Belanger
2013-04-02 19:27             ` Karl Fogel
2013-04-03 18:07               ` Richard Stallman
2013-04-03 21:34                 ` Karl Fogel
2013-04-03 23:20                   ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-04-04  3:09                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-04-04  7:23                     ` Andreas Schwab
2013-04-04  7:53                       ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-04-05  2:09                   ` Richard Stallman
2013-04-05  6:46                     ` Leo Liu
2013-04-05 15:01                     ` Karl Fogel
2013-04-06 14:04                       ` Richard Stallman
2013-04-03  0:06           ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-27 13:07   ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28  4:19     ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 12:47       ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28 13:25       ` John Wiegley
2013-03-28 13:57       ` Bastien
2013-03-28 18:59         ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 19:48           ` chad
2013-03-28 20:59           ` Bastien
2013-03-27  4:15 ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2013-03-27  6:38   ` Leo Liu
2013-03-31 22:01     ` Giorgos Keramidas
2013-03-31 23:00       ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-03-31 23:40         ` Giorgos Keramidas
2013-04-01  0:50           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-04-01  5:54             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-01  6:36               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-04-03 18:59             ` Stefan Monnier
2013-04-01  8:33           ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-04-01 17:47       ` John Wiegley
2013-04-02 19:14         ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-02 19:28           ` Karl Fogel
2013-04-02 19:36             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-04 17:44           ` John Wiegley
2013-04-04 18:16             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-04 18:44               ` joakim
2013-04-04 19:15                 ` John Wiegley
2013-04-04 20:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-04 18:57               ` Sam Steingold
2013-04-04 20:48                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-05  4:34                 ` Bastien
2013-04-05 10:46                   ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-04-05 15:37                 ` Barry Warsaw
2013-04-06 23:03                   ` Jambunathan K
2013-04-07  1:09                   ` Stefan Monnier
2013-04-07  5:22                     ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-04-04 23:08               ` Stephen Leake
2013-04-04 23:58                 ` Daniel Colascione
2013-04-05  1:13                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-04-07  3:11                     ` Wojciech Meyer
2013-04-05  9:57               ` Julien Danjou
2013-04-05 14:55               ` Karl Fogel [this message]
2013-04-05 15:14                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-05 15:21                   ` Lennart Borgman
2013-04-02 22:00         ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-03-27  8:55   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-27 14:10   ` John Wiegley
2013-03-27 16:54     ` Romain Francoise
2013-03-27 14:52   ` Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
2013-03-27  7:53 ` Carsten Dominik
2013-03-27  9:09 ` Julien Danjou
2013-03-27  9:56   ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-03-27 10:36     ` David Engster
2013-03-27 12:51       ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-03-27 12:55       ` Julien Danjou
2013-03-27 13:39         ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-27 13:58           ` David Engster
2013-03-27 23:13           ` Stephen Leake
2013-03-27 23:16             ` Stephen Leake
2013-03-28  3:26               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-28  8:37                 ` Stephen Leake
2013-03-28  9:15                   ` Andreas Schwab
2013-03-28  9:07                 ` David Engster
2013-03-28  9:55                   ` Abolishing ChangeLog files (was: On the subject of Git, Bazaar, and the future of Emacs development) Christopher Schmidt
2013-03-28 10:55                     ` Abolishing ChangeLog files Thierry Volpiatto
2013-03-28 18:58                       ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 20:09                         ` Aidan Gauland
2013-03-28 21:00                         ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-29  3:47                           ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-29  6:36                             ` Paul Eggert
2013-03-29 20:57                             ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28 23:44                         ` Steve Youngs
2013-03-29  3:48                           ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-29  8:02                             ` Steve Youngs
2013-03-29  9:16                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29 14:20                               ` John Wiegley
2013-03-29 23:06                                 ` Steve Youngs
2013-03-29 18:37                               ` Richard Stallman
2013-03-28 11:05                     ` Abolishing ChangeLog files (was: On the subject of Git, Bazaar, and the future of Emacs development) Carsten Dominik
2013-03-28 11:44                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-03-28 11:56                       ` Abolishing ChangeLog files David Engster
2013-03-29  0:23                         ` Steve Youngs
2013-03-28 11:59                       ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-03-28 13:17                       ` John Wiegley
2013-03-28 23:58                       ` Steve Youngs
2013-03-28 12:41                     ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28 16:34                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-28 17:13                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-28 17:20                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-28 17:34                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-28 21:04                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-28 21:29                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-28 22:42                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-29  5:45                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29  6:10                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29  6:43                                       ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-03-29  7:08                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29  8:38                                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-29  9:18                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29 10:11                                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-29 10:50                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29 11:11                                               ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-03-29 11:43                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29 11:00                                             ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-03-29 11:41                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29 22:15                                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-29 15:07                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-29 15:36                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29 15:58                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-29 17:16                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-03-29 20:58                                             ` chad
2013-03-29  6:43                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-03-28 20:58                         ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-29 21:53                       ` Nikolai Weibull
2013-03-30  2:20                         ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-30  8:07                           ` Nikolai Weibull
2013-03-28 12:35                   ` On the subject of Git, Bazaar, and the future of Emacs development Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28 13:08                     ` David Engster
2013-03-29  7:00                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-03-29 10:14                     ` David Engster
2013-03-29 21:27                       ` joakim
2013-03-28  2:43             ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28  3:22               ` Kolo Rahl
2013-03-28 12:27                 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-03-28  8:08               ` Stephen Leake

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