From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 4e23cd0 4/5: * mail/rmail.el (rmail-show-message-1): When displaying a mime message, Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 01:24:04 +0900 Message-ID: <87mw2he0d7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <552130FE.1010101@yandex.ru> <83mw2mn2no.fsf@gnu.org> <5521359D.2000509@yandex.ru> <83fv8emvgq.fsf@gnu.org> <55219139.8040507@yandex.ru> <83oan2l4pk.fsf@gnu.org> <5521B811.8070603@yandex.ru> <83d23hlmia.fsf@gnu.org> <20150407165131.GA2600@acm.fritz.box> <552486A4.2020803@yandex.ru> <5525D65C.8090303@yandex.ru> <83fv89g3dl.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1428596682 21570 80.91.229.3 (9 Apr 2015 16:24:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 16:24:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 09 18:24:24 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YgFFf-0003Qj-NE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Apr 2015 18:24:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35583 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YgFFe-0005g4-Ue for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:24:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35404) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YgFFb-0005fo-R2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:24:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YgFFa-00046v-JU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:24:19 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:50106) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YgFFV-0003pv-1V; Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:24:13 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 440871C3835; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 01:24:05 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1C271120EC9; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 01:24:05 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <83fv89g3dl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" 83e5c3cd6be6 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:185217 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > [Even without Lisp applications, Emacs] is still a useful text > editor. With Git, unless you know how to resolve pull/push > conflicts, you cannot do the simplest thing. And that's the > difference; I don't understand how you can deny it. The only way I can make sense of that comment is that your definition of "simple" is the activity of highest complexity known to man: working in large distributed teams, which is the situation that induces pull/push conflicts. Emacs provides zero[1] functionality for handling that that doesn't involve a full "commit" (ie, file save), and Emacs knows nothing about history *outside* of buffers (the equivalent of a Git workspace). Git does almost nothing that isn't tuned to that level of *external* complexity. The simplest thing is to use Git like RCS: git commit, git diff, lather, rinse, repeat. Even Richard and Alan do that without getting their shorts in a knot. But their workflows are very workspace-and- mainline-centric; they don't see a need for dealing with branches, let alone the DAG. They don't want to go beyond the RCS workflow. DVCS fans do; branches and DAG manipulations are useful tools for many development activities and workflows, which Richard and Alan evidently perform rarely if ever. Unfortunately for them most of the developing world has decided that DVCS and DAGs are good things, and they're finding themselves more and more isolated, even within the Emacs community. Granted, Git has a lot of spurious complication (the Git analogs of `cl-caadar'! this happens when a tool is work-in-progess, as all useful free software tools are in practice), but the problems Richard and Alan are encountering are soon solved by those who study a little bit, and establish some discipline in performing what they've learned. Richard and Alan, too, could very easily develop and make habitual a DVCS routine that allows them to continue the same programming workflow with a little extra typing that happens to differ from CVS.[2] Instead they started a flamewar, and Richard has made explicit that he expects somebody else to do most of the work of adapting git to his specification. There's nothing wrong with wanting your tools to be adapted to you, of course, but if you want to cooperate with others, sometimes you need to compromise with the shared tools. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of developers have been compromising with Richard's fiats about tools (diff -c, ChangeLogs, Bazaar to name three) for decades. Of course such conventions are useful, but which is optimal is a matter of personal preference and habit, which (shockingly enough) differ from developer to developer. Not everybody can have what they want. Footnotes: [1] I've heard of collaborative editing tools built on Emacs, but AFAIK it's not a common activity or supported in Emacs itself. And AFAIK "agile" has moved away from that, favoring techniques like pair programming instead. [2] Yes, I know that Richard at least finds typing painful. Of all people on God's green Earth, Richard should be able to find ways of abbreviating ritualized typing.