Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

(I used org-submit-bug-report, but this is a feature request.)

It would be nice to have a special property like ITEM
without the leading stars, which is annoying in, e.g., the agenda column
view.

I imagine that this will be easy to implement.
There may be some UI implications (confusing in some contexts?) and
the property name needs to be chosen.

If this is a bad idea, please let me know.

Emacs  : GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
3.22.24), modified by Debian
Package: Org mode version 9.1.14 (9.1.14-1040-gf33fa9-elpaplus @ mixed
installation! /usr/share/emacs/26.1+gg1+14/lisp/org/ and
/usr/local/google/home/ayatane/.emacs.d/elpa/org-plus-contrib-20181125/)

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> (I used org-submit-bug-report, but this is a feature request.)
>
> It would be nice to have a special property like ITEM
> without the leading stars, which is annoying in, e.g., the agenda column
> view.
>
> I imagine that this will be easy to implement.
> There may be some UI implications (confusing in some contexts?) and
> the property name needs to be chosen.

This is already the case in master branch.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 2:57 PM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:
>
> > (I used org-submit-bug-report, but this is a feature request.)
> >
> > It would be nice to have a special property like ITEM
> > without the leading stars, which is annoying in, e.g., the agenda column
> > view.
> >
> > I imagine that this will be easy to implement.
> > There may be some UI implications (confusing in some contexts?) and
> > the property name needs to be chosen.
>
> This is already the case in master branch.

Is it not documented?  I'm running a master build, but it's not on the
Special Properties info doc.

Or did you mean ITEM omits the stars?  That doesn't appear to be the
case as of 04641c4bbefc5f90e05fe4e846f4aeab15f1c262 on master
yesterday.

>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:14 AM Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> wrote:
>
> Or did you mean ITEM omits the stars?  That doesn't appear to be the
> case as of 04641c4bbefc5f90e05fe4e846f4aeab15f1c262 on master
> yesterday.

So org-entry-properties does indeed return ITEM without the leading
stars, but the column view adds them back in.
This includes agenda views, where the stars make less sens out of the
outline context.

Apologies, the issue isn't in the ITEM special property, but how
column view processes it.

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> Or did you mean ITEM omits the stars?

Yes, I did.

> That doesn't appear to be the case as of
> 04641c4bbefc5f90e05fe4e846f4aeab15f1c262 on master yesterday.

Actually, that should be the case since Org 9.0.

Do you have an ECM?

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:14 AM Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> wrote:
>>
>> Or did you mean ITEM omits the stars?  That doesn't appear to be the
>> case as of 04641c4bbefc5f90e05fe4e846f4aeab15f1c262 on master
>> yesterday.
>
> So org-entry-properties does indeed return ITEM without the leading
> stars, but the column view adds them back in.
> This includes agenda views, where the stars make less sens out of the
> outline context.

We could ignore the level when displaying ITEM in agenda column view. As
a consequence, every item would start with a single star, which is
shorter and still not confusing.

WDYT?

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 6:35 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
> We could ignore the level when displaying ITEM in agenda column view. As
> a consequence, every item would start with a single star, which is
> shorter and still not confusing.

Sounds good to me.

>
> WDYT?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 6:35 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>> We could ignore the level when displaying ITEM in agenda column view. As
>> a consequence, every item would start with a single star, which is
>> shorter and still not confusing.
>
> Sounds good to me.

This is not satisfying, actually. If every item has a single asterisk,
you miss hierarchy between headlines in the same tree.

You can use `org-columns-modify-value-for-display-function' to remove
the asterisks, if needed.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 10:00 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>
> This is not satisfying, actually. If every item has a single asterisk,
> you miss hierarchy between headlines in the same tree.

I don't know what you mean.  Hierarchy is not displayed normally in
agenda view anyway, I don't know why displaying it in agenda column
view via the ITEM property is desirable?

>
> You can use `org-columns-modify-value-for-display-function' to remove
> the asterisks, if needed.

Is there a recommended way to set this only for agenda views?  I tried
setting it via the custom settings in org-agenda-custom-commands but
that doesn't work.

>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Bernt Hansen]

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 10:00 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>>
>> This is not satisfying, actually. If every item has a single asterisk,
>> you miss hierarchy between headlines in the same tree.
>
> I don't know what you mean.  Hierarchy is not displayed normally in
> agenda view anyway, I don't know why displaying it in agenda column
> view via the ITEM property is desirable?
>

I use hierarchy in my custom agenda view everyday.  Please do not remove
this feature.

Thanks,
Bernt

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 6:28 AM Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:
>
> Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:
>
> > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 10:00 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
> >>
> >> This is not satisfying, actually. If every item has a single asterisk,
> >> you miss hierarchy between headlines in the same tree.
> >
> > I don't know what you mean.  Hierarchy is not displayed normally in
> > agenda view anyway, I don't know why displaying it in agenda column
> > view via the ITEM property is desirable?
> >
>
> I use hierarchy in my custom agenda view everyday.  Please do not remove
> this feature.

Apparently I'm missing something.  How are you using hierarchy in an
agenda view?  Agenda views are flat, e.g.:

  tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
  tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
  tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
  tasks:      TODO Some task
  tasks:      TODO Some task
  tasks:      TODO Some task

If I remember correctly, the reason they're flat is that it generally
doesn't make sense to show the hierarchy because it won't make any
sense.  For example, the following:

* TODO Project A
** Some project A notes
* Project B
** TODO Some task for B

would have this hierarchy in an agenda view if we hypothetically displayed it:

  tasks:      * TODO Project A
  tasks:      ** TODO Some task for B

which I think is confusing at best (but I can believe is useful for
some work flows if you're careful).

>
> Thanks,
> Bernt

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> Apparently I'm missing something.  How are you using hierarchy in an
> agenda view?  Agenda views are flat, e.g.:
>
>   tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
>   tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
>   tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
>   tasks:      TODO Some task
>   tasks:      TODO Some task
>   tasks:      TODO Some task

We are talking about /columns view/ within agenda view, not agenda view
itself. Or so I think.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Bernt Hansen]

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 6:28 AM Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 10:00 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> This is not satisfying, actually. If every item has a single asterisk,
>> >> you miss hierarchy between headlines in the same tree.
>> >
>> > I don't know what you mean.  Hierarchy is not displayed normally in
>> > agenda view anyway, I don't know why displaying it in agenda column
>> > view via the ITEM property is desirable?
>> >
>>
>> I use hierarchy in my custom agenda view everyday.  Please do not remove
>> this feature.
>
> Apparently I'm missing something.  How are you using hierarchy in an
> agenda view?  Agenda views are flat, e.g.:
>
>   tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
>   tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
>   tasks:      TODO [#A] Some task
>   tasks:      TODO Some task
>   tasks:      TODO Some task
>   tasks:      TODO Some task
>
> If I remember correctly, the reason they're flat is that it generally
> doesn't make sense to show the hierarchy because it won't make any
> sense.  For example, the following:
>
> * TODO Project A
> ** Some project A notes
> * Project B
> ** TODO Some task for B
>
> would have this hierarchy in an agenda view if we hypothetically displayed it:
>
>   tasks:      * TODO Project A
>   tasks:      ** TODO Some task for B
>
> which I think is confusing at best (but I can believe is useful for
> some work flows if you're careful).
>


In my custom agenda view for Projects I set 
    (org-tags-match-list-sublevels 'indented)

(Tags have been removed for clarity)

Projects
  Rxxxx:      TODO Rxxxx Some Release
  Rxxxx:      .TODO Some Project
  Rxxxx:      ..TODO Some SubProject
  Rxxxx:      ...NEXT Some Task
  Rxxxx:      .TODO Another Project
  Rxxxx:      ..TODO Another Subproject
  Rxxxx:      ...TODO Another Subproject
  Rxxxx:      ....NEXT Another Task
  Rxxxx:      ..TODO Another Subproject [2/6]

which matches my actual tasks in Development.org

#+TITLE: Development
* TODO Rxxxx Some Release
** TODO Some Project
*** TODO Some Subproject
**** NEXT Some Task
** TODO Another Project
*** TODO Another Subproject
**** TODO Another Subproject
***** NEXT Another Task
*** TODO Another Subproject [2/6]
...


Regards,
Bernt

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 6:36 AM Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:
>
>
> In my custom agenda view for Projects I set
>     (org-tags-match-list-sublevels 'indented)

Good to know, although I see that setting
org-tags-match-list-sublevels to anything other than t is
semi-obsolete.

However, we are talking mostly about how the columns view in the
agenda works, not the agenda itself.

It is odd from a user standpoint that the agenda view deliberately
hides the hierarchy, while the column view adds the hierarchy back in.

Perhaps the stars should only be shown if
org-tags-match-list-sublevels is set to indented, so that the agenda
view matches
the column view with respect to showing hierarchy?  I personally stand
by Org mode's default stance that there's no point in
 showing hierarchy in agenda view.  Some people like Bernt have
workflows that do use hierarchy in agenda view, and that's fine.
But let us be consistent about it.

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> Perhaps the stars should only be shown if
> org-tags-match-list-sublevels is set to indented, so that the agenda
> view matches
> the column view with respect to showing hierarchy?

I don't think it makes sense since the aforementioned variable is not
related to columns view.

> I personally stand by Org mode's default stance that there's no point
> in showing hierarchy in agenda view. Some people like Bernt have
> workflows that do use hierarchy in agenda view, and that's fine. But
> let us be consistent about it.

I removed stars from columns view in Agenda mode, in master branch.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 3:18 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:
>
> > Perhaps the stars should only be shown if
> > org-tags-match-list-sublevels is set to indented, so that the agenda
> > view matches
> > the column view with respect to showing hierarchy?
>
> I don't think it makes sense since the aforementioned variable is not
> related to columns view.
>
> > I personally stand by Org mode's default stance that there's no point
> > in showing hierarchy in agenda view. Some people like Bernt have
> > workflows that do use hierarchy in agenda view, and that's fine. But
> > let us be consistent about it.
>
> I removed stars from columns view in Agenda mode, in master branch.

Okay, thanks.  I guess we can see how this works out with respect to users
like Brent using org-tags-match-list-sublevels or otherwise using hierarchy.

>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> Okay, thanks.  I guess we can see how this works out with respect to users
> like Brent using org-tags-match-list-sublevels or otherwise using
> hierarchy.

On second thought, this may not be a good idea, especially on master
branch, which is close from being released.

As suggested before, you ought to use
`org-columns-modify-value-for-display-function' instead. This is
probably the cleanest way to solve the current issue.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Allen Li]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 6:11 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:
>
> > Okay, thanks.  I guess we can see how this works out with respect to users
> > like Brent using org-tags-match-list-sublevels or otherwise using
> > hierarchy.
>
> On second thought, this may not be a good idea, especially on master
> branch, which is close from being released.
>
> As suggested before, you ought to use
> `org-columns-modify-value-for-display-function' instead. This is
> probably the cleanest way to solve the current issue.

I have worked around this locally, but I hope we can revisit this later since
it makes Org mode's user interface better.

Does it make sense for Org mode to keep a separate release branch so
new features can be worked on while a release is prepared (like how I
think Emacs does it)?

>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Bug: Special property ITEM without stars [9.1.14]

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Allen Li <darkfeline@felesatra.moe> writes:

> I have worked around this locally, but I hope we can revisit this later since
> it makes Org mode's user interface better.

I'm not totally convinced about that.

> Does it make sense for Org mode to keep a separate release branch so
> new features can be worked on while a release is prepared (like how I
> think Emacs does it)?

This is what "next" branch is about.