From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric Abrahamsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: etc/HELLO: On Chinese and Cantonese Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:29:05 -0700 Message-ID: <87mu0e890e.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> References: <87mu0e3giu.fsf@posteo.net> <83wnzil7ki.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24891"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: matthewzmd@posteo.net, ksqsf@mail.ustc.edu.cn, Stefan Kangas , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 22 19:30:22 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kVePs-0006Jj-Dt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 19:30:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57236 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVePr-0005w0-Dj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 13:30:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39646) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVeOt-0005W2-Qz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 13:29:19 -0400 Original-Received: from ericabrahamsen.net ([52.70.2.18]:42396 helo=mail.ericabrahamsen.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVeOr-0004tN-Ur; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 13:29:19 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (c-73-254-86-141.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [73.254.86.141]) (Authenticated sender: eric@ericabrahamsen.net) by mail.ericabrahamsen.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 849D0FA0E5; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:29:07 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericabrahamsen.net; s=mail; t=1603387748; bh=y8i+0zqK+sb37UpC+2aitD8DBtFS1BmlFHNT2hdwh10=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=qq3daVLsSJOCAlxFsryMIojAmAgs/WuXFsMzUinzpNGsCvD8QF4Twh4mn4zIfNRdN 13MvP9m+RJMG3xgUMOiGe4NpgOCY/yq8syj3VF3DqQKt8itrRRlYl6deUYOPt05wST FOeSIh1Tx6kt6yiz45Dt6nnKiTbeu/lTVBU00HXo= In-Reply-To: <83wnzil7ki.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:21:49 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=52.70.2.18; envelope-from=eric@ericabrahamsen.net; helo=mail.ericabrahamsen.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/22 13:29:09 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258315 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Stefan Kangas >> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 04:45:23 -0700 >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >>=20 >> > Therefore I propose to rmeove the Cantonese line entirely, and change >> > "(=E4=B8=AD=E6=96=87,=E6=99=AE=E9=80=9A=E8=AF=9D,=E6=B1=89=E8=AF=AD)" = to "(=E4=B8=AD=E6=96=87)" >>=20 >> The purpose of the HELLO file is to demonstrate the capabilities of >> Emacs to display various scripts (and detect problems in that support). > > Indeed. Therefore, the requirement to be in line with how the > speakers of a particular language would say Hello is secondary. > >> As far as I understand, written Chinese is pretty much always the same >> but there are two ways to write the characters: traditional and >> simplified. In contrast, the spoken languages (of which there are many) >> can be completely different. >>=20 >> So perhaps we should ideally just replace "Chinese" and "Cantonese" with >> these two entries: >>=20 >> Chinese (simplified) >> Chinese (traditional) >>=20 >> And then try to find some greetings that are actually different in the >> two scripts. I don't think they need to be natural in spoken language, >> but they would have to be technically correct in the written language. >> If they are unusual, that is fine, because the purpose is mostly to show >> the difference between the scripts. >>=20 >> Does that proposal make sense? > > AFAIR, there are some non-trivial aspects here, some of them political > and even ideological. There's PRC and there's ROC (a.k.a. Taiwan), > and I'm not sure what will each group say about the proposed changes. > > So unless we have a representative group of Chinese speakers from both > camps (traditional and simplified), and they agree on some change > without any controversies, I'd rather not touch this ticking bomb with > a 3-mile stick. The current text might not be 100% accurate, but it > has been there for many years. I'd rather not risk causing a > diplomatic incident by a change in Emacs. My 2c: the simplified/traditional script distinction is probably the right way to go. As Stefan says, the point of the file is showing off scripts, but more than that, the script distinction is actually relatively apolitical. It's when you get into Mandarin vs Cantonese and trying to establish a taxonomical relationship between dialects/variants that politics comes into it. The simplified/traditional split is pretty uncontroversial.