From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Mingde (Matthew) Zeng" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: etc/HELLO: On Chinese and Cantonese Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:45:45 -0400 Message-ID: <87mu0e3giu.fsf@posteo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31634"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Kai Ma Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 22 08:47:20 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kVUNc-00089g-LQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:47:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49528 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVUNb-0001Am-Nj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:47:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50720) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVUME-0000hp-NP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:45:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:52921) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVUMC-0003WS-Cv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:45:54 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC08E240100 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:45:47 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1603349147; bh=nWOKoFhFPQhadtWpUhJBZj5c++egEtuuEvkbjuUTFU0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=LPqmwniDbiNRpEbDjVhULS/cAoaDKiKaLDnsIJGdUiwm1rGiGw9pih05rE79OQ/wQ nm1jz9TP8RL9QGmixPTymmk5WiKLmVzm0gvGQNyhLLajtNcJuYaaAsJMru2jiiDF5k szfLMdboTn9AmsFfShxMJVdgcy0+W4zWpOBLquDhpIhe0ykNG+SOBIglf8eLDEH83r YZsWKSfZ/JaT5IJ4RH/bZNKFyPTmAWrr1dm2/ZTzVB3IxMgVL75GIzoxX77jckRKCl AuzDHAba3eW3HhR+hpZhoUAavmX+cIp6foBu/8FAFKp43kg5P6KlKU3YAolAcoPqeD sWOlN0pe94LcQ== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4CGyYQ4fR9z6tmh; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:45:46 +0200 (CEST) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=matthewzmd@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/22 02:45:48 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258269 Archived-At: This email brings me to look at the etc/HELLO file for the first time. As a Chinese myself, I must point out that there is virtually _no_ Chinese = who would say "=E6=97=A9=E6=99=A8, =E4=BD=A0=E5=A5=BD" when they greet some= one, regardless of whether they speak Mandarin or Cantonese. Although it is= technically correct, it is _super_ weird for someone to say it this way. Basically the meaningful difference between Mandarin and Cantonese on paper= is that the former uses simplified Chinese and the latter uses traditional= Chinese. Fortuntaely, when it comes to greet someone, both mandarin and ca= ntonese use "=E4=BD=A0=E5=A5=BD", which is the same in both simplified and = traditional. Therefore I propose to rmeove the Cantonese line entirely, and change "(=E4= =B8=AD=E6=96=87,=E6=99=AE=E9=80=9A=E8=AF=9D,=E6=B1=89=E8=AF=AD)" to "(=E4= =B8=AD=E6=96=87)" Matthew Kai Ma writes: > Hi emacs-devel > > I noticed recently in etc/HELLO Chinese and Cantonese are aligned side > to side, which is linguistically incorrect. Though Chinese taxonomy is > complex, there are two main viewpoints regarding Cantonese: > > 1. Chinese is a single language, and Cantonese is "a dialect of Chinese". > 2. Chinese is a family of languages [1], and Cantonese belongs to this > family. > > Neither of them sees Cantonese is separate from Chinese -- they both > view Cantonese as a "kind" of Chinese. Putting Cantonese below is like > putting French below Romance languages. > > Therefore, I propose to make the following changes. > 1. Change "Chinese" to "Chinese, Mandarin". > 2. Change "Cantonese" to "Chinese, Cantonese". > This allows for future additions for other Sinitic languages. > > Or, since Sinitic languages are similar when written [2], it may be not > very helpful to list each of them: > 1. Remove the Cantonese line entirely; > 2. Remove "=E6=99=AE=E9=80=9A=E8=AF=9D" (which means Mandarin) from the C= hinese line; > 3. Add "=E6=BC=A2=E8=AA=9E" to the Chinese line -- Chinese has not only o= ne written > system [3]. > > What do you think? > > Regards > Kai > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinitic_languages > [2] Though the same words are pronounced differently. e.g. =E4=BD=A0=E5= =A5=BD in > Cantonese is pronounced "nei hou", while in Mandarin is pronounced "ni ha= o". > [3] See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_characters and > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_characters -- Mingde (Matthew) Zeng