From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Change default behavior of some commands that act on region? Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 09:07:31 +1000 Message-ID: <87mtsmbbms.fsf@gmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36980"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.5.13; emacs 27.2.50 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 23 01:19:35 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lkau7-0009OF-4S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 May 2021 01:19:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40838 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkau5-00012y-4E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 22 May 2021 19:19:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60434) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkatX-0000OR-Vv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 22 May 2021 19:19:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]:33470) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkatW-0002Mj-Ev for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 22 May 2021 19:18:59 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id b13-20020a17090a8c8db029015cd97baea9so8733968pjo.0 for ; Sat, 22 May 2021 16:18:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:subject:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version; bh=sHN4la2zk4AAgayr901AdCCWeEqZjI6XWLqKOeawjL4=; b=Zq/E+BLD/as5ROKIv3Af7NGt4SRnJV4l3+rDfKz40KFnNl8OrWh31EXZ7qVqpx09al 7JFIp+o7eNgLBCtUfd0dT7/lC5VMqU+Ial8pF34TdRCd/hZzPJCy3Ni4Nu03qT6GQAou 7ASumwfvT7L6GEO3mRVlyWPrmgDI8zF1mfLaclP7WeTAl1EeIDw+NiChJ1W6qObohbNc ZVUaBXOdUaZ+jjW0eyl46fPe6lLkLGShDcncyc+t1QfGHL4N4Mkc5S1sdRUB44k1+h/v 9ZL1+ni3h+v3jhwxqVfL0x4GpFL/Gy1PBvwr8/v9lJptszecQcp6nwyqp6yJ4t76MFCO 0j5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=sHN4la2zk4AAgayr901AdCCWeEqZjI6XWLqKOeawjL4=; b=o02DvMLRU/4QCCEBfbADavtjB2356WbAtQqCpalJoUGVBEld27aoeQEz2kroD2wbGC y0R51SjBJ38bRh3bVzbL+im1qRlb1A9LL2s6RXhbclkMUjdQ+27cV0AaVGilWe4SBoh7 qsJZ/Tyev6BRpcJMeJrsXYIyJqXPdsyTNpN24em4i9MUmkqT38/B/lX3EoG6VPYi2EF+ 6CwcszN26r/UavnWfpdAPT253gwXKJCs2TSuXdttcl9HFr5rryU9Ko0LZXlx9r+BF8+U Ow9a+pq1ov7dsG/1ZO/YeTN4PHLl1G/SUQQqapxkrBu1pmbS3g1U7aen9XSuIcGYqtzZ cZpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533FplXvbSE57yYPdnkL/52/QRiVfa8T6FYsYwcsb+pnR7ZU8n4l 93n7fynZCe6q6WfKpZ0jH6RHB7r+jRA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIEiplEya0zD0M53zD6qbm4io/SrBb+BpLKTZpnFX7otKUp1ifj9EnRIC+BcVk7pifDVR6ng== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:341:: with SMTP id fh1mr17527142pjb.136.1621725535930; Sat, 22 May 2021 16:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-127-171.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.127.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 67sm7162645pfw.83.2021.05.22.16.18.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 22 May 2021 16:18:55 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1032.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:269634 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >> There are some commands, such as `downcase-region', >> that act on the region regardless of whether it's >> active. Because `transient-mark-mode' has been on by >> default for quite a while now, and because there are >> few such commands, users can wonder what's going on. > > I see two sub-issues to this: > > 1- Breaking long-standing behavior. I'll let others figure out how to > minimize this (e.g. by testing for `transient-mark-mode` or something). > > 2- If we take a step back, I think we'll see there's a "better optimum" > in this area when `transient-mark-mode` is in use. E.g. we could > combine `downcase-word` and `downcase-region` into a single command > which will do either of the two depending on `use-region-p`. > > Just to throw another point into the mix here for consideration. >From an accessibility perspective, transient mark mode can be a challenge. For example, if your blind, you cannot see the highlighted region. Therefore, packages like emacspeak turn off transient mark mode. I raise this to highlight there is another 'group' of users who turn off transient mark mode, so any changes to these long standing defaults might want to consider impact on this group as well. Solutions, such as telling people to turn on transient mark mode to get back some behaviour is unlikely to help. If your blind, transient mark mode really just causes confusion. Personally, I'm not sure there really is a need for this change. I've seen few (none I can recall) complaints from users suggesting the existing behaviour is confusing, but perhaps this isn't the sort of question people ask? -- Tim Cross