From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id K0TOHMSqpmFlsgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:50:44 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 8IzPF8SqpmEGbgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 22:50:44 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B08511442A for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:50:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52632 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msBxS-0001Fd-01 for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:50:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34700) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msBwG-00014F-OM for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:49:28 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:33955) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msBwE-00077J-8Z for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:49:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1638312562; bh=sTygabQNVPgYF2xraCs6T2XjGc/c58q9bIOMj38y+Nw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to; b=mq9x8heLhq0Dk0yrc+9uabOsrTFVbgfQAhglvS4sA3KiD6yBF2iigCIxNzmXj6JuL xpX3Z9AlbmtgXZQTuLW5WkapLX9lkNG/l42FJ/ejXNUYwIWJVwo+M4YzyKFfSdUM5z u6EspwX98aIY8djsxN9YH+RMC3LnkzUK5luai6VM= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.27.113]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MW9rM-1n75560vZS-00XzSE; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:49:22 +0100 References: <2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <875ysb7v1r.fsf@gmail.com> <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <87tufuu8ah.fsf@atlantis> <2021-11-30T21-02-53@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" To: Karl Voit Subject: Re: Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis (was: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:28:26 +0100 In-reply-to: <2021-11-30T21-02-53@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> Message-ID: <87mtll45u7.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1wEiIp0FSW2WEL9RoBLMr3b6PQamah1ntasX0BsHWNlAsrDoqqU nVBVgtpqQ5K+amUH12f4odMgLHl4LKvy7AeL8xKhEuK4g5gGQ5bi/5KYCnyi6CA3gSIVLnn DrjOmu9MjPMxjbi8c6pGb87d08AAw6a1nccu2iYIBtmXvavah7MkbpUoBknFNzVCB6B8OE2 UBH7/+Lu1LKt0WG2rJwCw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Kz7MbmIRNPM=:wMrxwxLi1hD3SalvlrxMs8 Ozc8y5MYAwzNwuwvntvlWoHHqy5MoFvLA7GdFimDfkhJlqTuaiWHc+wC0/k4jDlgj8aOtphzc Fc18/X/JOHrWKs8O6qK7FvWQdp01ZD0SJiTa9BkoWC/vvp5S2g+jHDInAhkpkFrma3Pu4NoVd dI/qIwsXgDjHHc4au5sGqVkzSvMz2CGl6CAx6ensjLvFZXSa2x2DNBCXBl5jez9d17GBF0/mB 8KDmzRUCY3jsclu9+27QElIOWlCevD4WoVlx+PPnPlzqa2DjhDNcmjE4w8T6PpHXZaTu+93xt Mme4aEaDTYdlqBNIDAuHFqFobNRFAJ+6Z05XSk/bOUyuGYxNHcbw/rgiJQuh88QKN9fqbG2Nm LxPqWZNWf63Vqu+lC14jAy+QXnqKKMGV0FJd/OsYi+hNi20WYcpQY8cnpFKiMC/ltTMvMONgN sYXlOZaxAd9RZWRAiDV5Wuy1Y52oJrlHt0l68vB4j8Irqa5Y1CWcpTFIuk8kUtySEr0BOVk5t oblAiVeQ8Zn1F3twgGXntlPGHSf+ONsNi4J8M+37p34m5ch+ssNyoFpn3vKlEWM2orF5oMSPG ERH/IxCjejzAQWGzq5Q7R383ry3bL9kT8ssrR3kw0yuS0DNKqEzR01rFY6D8LzJF7IxzzdQ0u qvCPGcKxOHAla8iuc23H1TD2VuNGyWOX+VGEerC45LNbe9k3LMsWnvdsqFjqMBuioiFm1v6Rr IAJNDDsXlKnBELppuhtcjc0ovsHUQK17H7TDYoPEgmkU83t6FX40hr3YiZdGsTZrikGl58l98 L+7fN04oOFtIdachhxNXziZPuKnwPFzaM9U9uiIMYSEbGFP6qlbBduBxuaukpeF9Dyd1r2o5S k79fhoOly7Cjfeev2scd4klPN25dV24mliOp/Mpy9OxgsWCaDDWb3hVYGHW+hDa2O5pRC4x3I X2hxlFnaZB1LqXTtvGAlFw2O+gGKwSyT43BzB/ivQWEcU7U0GDxzd/ELeqbdUOByzT3ByKwX5 Oev7tmqwo7Gfb3eaTewFjczgWKjW+5Ja67014oJcn+Y8l+LHyuhQXfX/KiWz5yWRm3FFuCv1A D8Uc5VOOqWcuRk= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.72.192.78; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Karl Voit , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638312643; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=45PWad4EqdNPz+ZG95ejgetf0/6uL7vE76XMw5iMCxg=; b=OoS18Qpl4eEX7wg0V0cyQjQnwepHwUWTmwkaUWQf1/6d+X4KI1qHok+dn/ASB7aN/wBmrn mq3LxT3E1xRyfbOxrb+P44re69HalpDR8DX0t6N1dKiEx9qfcuIpS2wmqf85fSR57JUPVz xTC6uY6cDa+eymkmxSPqrkikPIBS2FA6tH1Dbj3rzC/UimOruLQ3IbYTRnQZ2jdSQvksz4 l8IQj/qgCNBk4BSiELEhdV3rheJAHyrjrU/t3vMG8SDTxLCWlrf3ChYEeJ616WoJS3bOst DMuTnpo8d91IdwRsgoklfmK6b11tzV8RoOHvRg1tdWuulYHVmMJQFQVPLEv9fA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638312643; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=sLALmM8nnUHsavUfrGzA3P7d54+WpdPze6DoYFeWL02bwBNM44JahN8vgtBOGJXtU8qraD JtqL1kUm1orzHVIDvGeKFWV2jWc3dXCIMjioz0OWJTDOnUS/hCzmg5x2Nc0O07052Piimx tIpTgLt7OPcijAAwz/TQw+XHGhT2nIdDcsrzxrVQRBBuqittzUMZZFDoXwEF1Ndrh0fqCM SnMLv+c2DXcA82rnZFBknVlQrWpGFfkAThK12XlorgQsTS0OfVh9G7OsPUVbghROduIbbG /VRz99XcznxWRWDhczoebk6y7fbo3FD+6uyNMg/w9Sh+mSlj7LLCmSQQ7W51NA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=mq9x8heL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=web.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.99 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=mq9x8heL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=web.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B08511442A X-Spam-Score: -6.99 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: /ocSRRsQsdDo --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Karl Voit writes: > * M =E2=80=98quintus=E2=80=99 G=C3=BClker wrote: >> Am Montag, dem 29. November 2021 schrieb Karl Voit: >>> It seems to be the case that the name "Orgdown" is the reason why >>> the Org-mode community does not support the idea of an >>> implementation-agnostic definition of the syntax. Which is ... kinda >>> funny if you think about it. This does not represent my answer correctly. I explicitly said that org is implementation-defined, so *full* compatibility cannot easily be achieved outside Emacs. That does not prevent partial compatibility. >>> Well if the project is not working out, at least I made my point and >>> we continue to have all those misunderstandings and lack of Orgdown >>> support in 3rd party tools (because Org-mode is way too big). >> >> I think the project has value; better tooling outside of Emacs is >> something org can only profit from in my opinion. One point that has not >> been raised yet are scenarios of collaborative work; I would enjoy it >> quite a bit if I could work on documents together with people who do not >> like Emacs as an editor for whatever reason. Currently, org as a file >> format is pretty much excluded if collaboration is intended with someone >> who does not use Emacs. The natural choice in these cases is Markdown. > > I agree. > > One of the next things I do have on my list is to try out crdt as > I've learned at EmacsConf21 that it is mature enough to be used in > practice.=20 > > If that holds true, we can start dreaming of having a Etherpad-like > session from our GNU/Emacs while peers are connected to the same > session via some web-based tool/service. That would be pretty nice. You might also want to look at orgzly[1], org-js[2], or markup-rocks[3]. [1]: http://www.orgzly.com/help [2]: https://github.com/mooz/org-js [3]: https://markup.rocks/ All of these call org-mode syntax simply "org". > There were two possible generic approaches for me: start from zero > with an open process, involving peers in all choices such as naming, > Orgdown1 syntax elements, ... You can also just take up the already given arguments, form a decision, and then move forward. > Simply switching to a different name is not just search&replace. It > would reset the project almost to its very start again, losing the > go-live effect of previous weekend (whose effect might be > questionable considering the name discussion), its project URL that > is now out there, the motivation video which aims to explain the > motivation to users of Emacs, the EmacsConf21 talk publicity, and it > would require much effort to reach the status where Orgdown is now. Why is that? From=20the technical side a simple entry in NEWS =E2=80=9EOrgdown now uses = the name Org Syntax as alias=E2=80=9C and a second domain should suffice. It=E2=80=99s the emotional side that no one but you could solve. > My guess is that most people do not suffer much from different > Markdown flavors because they rarely mix them in their workflows. I > guess most people are using Markdown only in their text editor OR > only in GitHub/GitLab org files OR only within any other > Markdown-tool. Or they just don=E2=80=99t use 90% of markdown features. Titles, quoted, bo= ld, emphasis, links, inline-source, source-blocks. Which is a big difference compared to Org mode. Even with that, source-blocks tend to break between implementations. >> Maybe most documents are very simple files. README files for FLOSS >> projects, forum posts, blog posts. For such content the features where >> the Markdown implementations differ are usually not required.=20 > > This sounds also a plausible explanation and is also boosted by > another posting as an answer to yours. And markdown has inline HTML: Anything missing (like tables) is just exported from org-mode as HTML. > I don't think that users of LaTeX/ConTeXt are part of the target > group. They would actually lose a bit of having control, I think. > And Overleaf might be too hard to beat I guess although I personally > don't like to use cloud-based services but meanwhile that's the > opinion of a tiny minority. Switching from LaTeX to Org-Mode was a very empowering step for me, because it simpified most documents a lot, enabled quick restructuring, allowed for easy tracking of TODO-states and using executed inline-code via babel =E2=80=94 and I gained HTML export for free. It=E2=80=99s not the tool for a single paper to one journal that only has t= o fit one format and is never edited after final submission, but for any larger writing, org-mode is quite a boost in productivity. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmGmqnAQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD64lxD/9Pe93uVrc1qv35jCk2pwvu33tjlJnQzQ/o Y+7VQCxWeBSv4Du3Hr9k5GauQqKRwHphIj0PQPb+aO8oPAJZEBVmN6Y9seCWqzhH ZVEy0oNdcyWdI7nyWc4lixy8x9z/Crzp7KRmwjGDs4ivzBwZu0pHH+/iKMFWCzuL xV5/ArznXgGTGdQOLZfcFarnLuNDR9+m2/CRcwSNf7owmJxAv0L5Ztv7WVe9YHO6 BCdbS7FTU6ZfBebF5VekocQ0bO/MGI8VtNN9Ul/+80jubZYFK1X91AyDniPx/lF3 dND+3uiwXj2TkUlcMgcubStKKztI4/sPMJ69YGA+UF76T9eDZzwvzVePDl1JgeAJ JsnDlhdVuhaktodN242FPTGXLksh5U+cK6r08cT1Y8B0zEwmsowPw1fuhz7HaRBs Ez2lLLLGQoNjqKEFWKb94PD2vSxQMACUkrbxnjSqYaPstJq8hlvwOdvyGOoXq3sf vqnwIFiOzWiQxT/9BzLT/KMS6zL1KemaDAgXc0V92C1KbLojrpXW/U6Rsr2ml7MZ meqlbDA/Ikme/CXCqcRDDXljXzp90H+9ZDz6Srvp3ed5WKbv6hmNzOtbwBN5MEQj u1AjzAVTdjLHiTuFAbVli57ALA7Y1oIAIIEFWET3/xtcS7D7FCkzOlkBX3swy7ge 93+Tb+FZ1ojEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmGmqnAQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSOGlA/9MlAh1rnrhTxKfL84W/Mvsw8TP JqumrxaZOplOaYDit8KB8yNfk8B2BHzMzpyrdRJ3BHBLC3lZS6Z9aNrmVaw+Um4G I65MbF9Fo8uqUVMwbpo3bwOSVnrcbkvCNCJNyySxvur+SOLnJQ0/ia8VOO0qHKwC Q/T3kqK1fdY9RcPY5A== =vE3k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--