From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 00:59:23 +0100 Message-ID: <87msvied5w.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87bkc0ifzf.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87o7fzollf.fsf@yahoo.com> <875y27g27w.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87fs1bo3y1.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2635"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:QKUXnEgYcn43+sUEXadFcKQLp8s= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 13 04:19:23 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2NTu-0000T5-KB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 04:19:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2NTi-0004WI-HY; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 22:19:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2KN5-00045P-Vb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:00:08 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2KN2-0005eN-D1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:00:07 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2KN0-0009G5-A2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 01:00:02 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 22:19:07 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312688 Archived-At: Po Lu wrote: >> It is loaded when it is used. When it is loaded is >> a technicality at that point, unless the preloaded or not >> distinction has some hidden meaning I'm unaware of. > > Preloaded Lisp is present within the dumped emacs binary, > other Lisp is not. I don't think any distinction could be > more marked than that. Yes, but what does it matter if cl-lib is not loaded there? It is loaded everywhere else and that is where it is used. You can of course keep it out of some subset but that isn't reducing its use everywhere else, which is what has been identified as the problem. >> "cl-loop" appears 1004 times in the Emacs source so a lot >> of people put it do good use. I also think `cl-loop' is >> very useful. > > Those 1004 instances are precisely what we are trying to > prevent from growing, and then reduce. They are > incomprehensible to Emacs Lisp programmers and therefore > antithetical to how Emacs Lisp should be written. Those who wrote it disagrees, they didn't see anything wrong with using a library provided by Emacs. And I don't, either. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal