Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to gmane.emacs.devel as well.


(info-other-window "(emacs)File Conveniences")

mentions "Thumbs mode" for viewing directories of images files.  As
far as I understand the preferred mode for thumbnails is now "Tumme".

Is this an oversight?

GNU Emacs 22.0.95.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.8.20) of
2007-03-02 on pacem, modified by Debian

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Nick Roberts]

 > (info-other-window "(emacs)File Conveniences")
 > 
 > mentions "Thumbs mode" for viewing directories of images files.  As
 > far as I understand the preferred mode for thumbnails is now "Tumme".

Maybe that's why Tumme has it's own node, "Thumbnails".

 > Is this an oversight?

What are you suggesting that we don't mention "Thumbs mode" at all?  I
think it's a good alternative for users who just want to look at a
few pictures e.g icons directory.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to gmane.emacs.devel as well.

Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes:

>  > (info-other-window "(emacs)File Conveniences")
>  > 
>  > mentions "Thumbs mode" for viewing directories of images files.  As
>  > far as I understand the preferred mode for thumbnails is now "Tumme".
>
> Maybe that's why Tumme has it's own node, "Thumbnails".

You've devastated my subject line 8-).  (I should stated this in
another way.)

>
>  > Is this an oversight?
>
> What are you suggesting that we don't mention "Thumbs mode" at all?  I

No, definitely not.  Emacs can live with two "image viewers".

> think it's a good alternative for users who just want to look at a
> few pictures e.g icons directory.

I'd just give a link from the (emacs)File Convenience paragraph to the
Thumbnails node and rephrase your hint above.

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Matthew Stallman]

I don't see a need to mention Thumbs mode as well as Tumme mode.
It makes things unnecessarily complex.

We certainly should not mention Thumbs more MORE than Tumme mode
in any given spot.

So I will take out the description of Thumbs mode and put in an xref
to the Tumme mode section.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Nick Roberts]

 > I don't see a need to mention Thumbs mode as well as Tumme mode.
 > It makes things unnecessarily complex.

I think it's quite simple if you do as Dieter suggested i.e give a link to
Tumme from the (emacs)File Convenience paragraph to the Thumbnails description
and explain that Tumme is more extensive,

 > We certainly should not mention Thumbs more MORE than Tumme mode
 > in any given spot.
 >
 > So I will take out the description of Thumbs mode and put in an xref
 > to the Tumme mode section.

Yes, that's a good way to ensure no-one finds out about it.  If you consider a
five line description of a package excessive, you might as well remove it,
which is a shame as it's never been included in a release.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Matthew Stallman]

    Yes, that's a good way to ensure no-one finds out about it.  If you consider a
    five line description of a package excessive, you might as well remove it,
    which is a shame as it's never been included in a release.

Maybe we should remove it, since Tumme seems to be a superior
tool for the same job.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Nick Roberts]

 >     Yes, that's a good way to ensure no-one finds out about it.  If you
 >     consider a five line description of a package excessive, you might as
 >     well remove it, which is a shame as it's never been included in a
 >     release.
 > 
 > Maybe we should remove it, since Tumme seems to be a superior
 > tool for the same job.

I don't think it does do the same job, but then I don't use either.  It
would be nice if someone who does use both could confirm if this was true
or not before talking about removing it.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes:

>  > Maybe we should remove it, since Tumme seems to be a superior
>  > tool for the same job.
>
> I don't think it does do the same job, but then I don't use either.  It
> would be nice if someone who does use both could confirm if this was true
> or not before talking about removing it.

Sorry, I only used either three or four times.  From these somewhat
shallow impressions I'd also conclude that tumme is the superior tool
and a superset of thumbs' abilities.  I'm going to use tumme for image
viewing.  But superiority is not the only point, I think.

The point for retaining thumbs is that one can't please everybody with
one approach.  From a user's perspective I think offering choice
outstrips every other disadvantage concerning maintainability,
consistency, etc.  There might be users who dislike tumme's name and
"unnecessary overhead" and ...

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> The point for retaining thumbs is that one can't please everybody with
> one approach.
> ...
> From a user's perspective I think offering choice
> outstrips every other disadvantage concerning maintainability,
> consistency, etc.

That might be true in many situations. However, Thumbs and Tumme are
very similar, feature-wise. There are some differences in how things
are implemented which I do not think is very important.

My opinion is that if there are functions in Thumbs that isn't in
Tumme, we should add them in Tumme. Or, we could do the opposite, but
I think that will take more work.

> There might be users who dislike tumme's name and
> "unnecessary overhead" and ...

I know those were just examples of things people might dislike, but I
don't think they were very good ones. The name, for example, could be
changed. We could have an alias called `thumbs' which would call
`tumme', if we wanted (if Thumbs was to be removed). About the
overhead, well, as long as the user does not see it, what's the
problem? ...

Anyway, my main point is that it feels like a waste of resources to
keep both packages. The packages are very similar so I don't buy the
"choice" argument. The choice argument would be a better one if we
talked about the different MUAs, for example, which seems very
different in some cases.

About things that are missing in Tumme regards to what is there in
Thumbs: Tumme works for what I use it for, not strange considering I
made it to support what I want to do. This means I don't have a very
strong "itch" to merge more things into Tumme.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Mathias, thanks for answering and for tumme (of course).

>> The point for retaining thumbs is that one can't please everybody with
>> one approach.
>> ...
>> From a user's perspective I think offering choice
>> outstrips every other disadvantage concerning maintainability,
>> consistency, etc.
>
> That might be true in many situations. However, Thumbs and Tumme are
> very similar, feature-wise. There are some differences in how things
> are implemented which I do not think is very important.
>

I also think that the differences aren't *very* important.

...
>
>> There might be users who dislike tumme's name and
>> "unnecessary overhead" and ...
>
...
> don't think they were very good ones. The name, for example, could be
> changed. We could have an alias called `thumbs' which would call

That would be a good idea.

...
> Anyway, my main point is that it feels like a waste of resources to
> keep both packages. The packages are very similar so I don't buy the
> "choice" argument. The choice argument would be a better one if we
> talked about the different MUAs, for example, which seems very
> different in some cases.
>

I'll give you an example: I, personally, prefer the way tumme handles
the images when the size is bigger than the display buffer, it fits
the image to the buffer size.  thumbs is displaying the image in the
original resolution, I'm damn sure that there are users out there who
would prefer it the thumbs' way.

Well, I know that my arguments are weak because the packages are in a
way similar (and tumme seems to cover ?all? abilities of thumbs).

dieter@debby:/tmp$ wc thumbs.el tumme.el 
   819   2801  26311 thumbs.el
  2599   9708  96740 tumme.el

But then: So are your arguments for removing the packages 8-).
thumbs.el is small and therefore would not eat lots of resources (I
guess).


-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    But then: So are your arguments for removing the packages 8-).
    thumbs.el is small and therefore would not eat lots of resources (I
    guess).

The main cost of having thumbs.el is not the disk space it takes up.
It is the conceptual cost for users.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     But then: So are your arguments for removing the packages 8-).
>     thumbs.el is small and therefore would not eat lots of resources (I
>     guess).
>
> The main cost of having thumbs.el is not the disk space it takes up.

(I meant rather maintenance resources, manpower.)

> It is the conceptual cost for users.

Not so when the explanation for the existence of thumbs is so concise.
The user is guided and recommended to tumme and in one sentence you
could mention thumbs as an alternative for image viewing.  The user
has then the option to experiment.

I still think that it would be (slightly) better for Emacs to retain
thumbs.  Thank you for your patience.

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    > It is the conceptual cost for users.

    Not so when the explanation for the existence of thumbs is so concise.
    The user is guided and recommended to tumme and in one sentence you
    could mention thumbs as an alternative for image viewing.  The user
    has then the option to experiment.

That IS a conceptual cost.  It means that instead of a simple and
clear recommendation, we say "maybe this, maybe that."
Users can find this confusing.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Not so when the explanation for the existence of thumbs is so concise.
>     The user is guided and recommended to tumme and in one sentence you
>     could mention thumbs as an alternative for image viewing.  The user
>     has then the option to experiment.
>
> That IS a conceptual cost.  It means that instead of a simple and
> clear recommendation, we say "maybe this, maybe that."
> Users can find this confusing.

In the contrary, you should give a simple and clear recommendation:
"tumme" and you could say, by recognising that we are not living in an
ideal, logical world but in a world were some things are also a matter
of taste, that "thumbs" has evolved as an alternative (for dauntless
and inquisitive minds ;-)).

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> > don't think they were very good ones. The name, for example, could be
> > changed. We could have an alias called `thumbs' which would call
>
> That would be a good idea.

BTW, I'm curious, is there something offending by the word "tumme"? I
made a quick google search and could not find anything special. I
agree that "thumbs" is better, of course, or at least easier to
find/guess.

> I'll give you an example: I, personally, prefer the way tumme handles
> the images when the size is bigger than the display buffer, it fits
> the image to the buffer size.  thumbs is displaying the image in the
> original resolution, I'm damn sure that there are users out there who
> would prefer it the thumbs' way.

Then they could use C-u RET instead of just RET :)

> But then: So are your arguments for removing the packages 8-).
> thumbs.el is small and therefore would not eat lots of resources (I
> guess).

I'm not very concerned about disk space, I was mostly thinking about
maintenace resources, but I won't argue about that anymore as we
clearly have different opinions.

/Mathias

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

> BTW, I'm curious, is there something offending by the word "tumme"? I
> made a quick google search and could not find anything special. I
> agree that "thumbs" is better, of course, or at least easier to
> find/guess.

that's it (at least for English speakers).  Otherwise tumme is OK.

>> I'll give you an example: I, personally, prefer the way tumme handles
>> the images when the size is bigger than the display buffer, it fits
>> the image to the buffer size.  thumbs is displaying the image in the
>> original resolution, I'm damn sure that there are users out there who
>> would prefer it the thumbs' way.
>
> Then they could use C-u RET instead of just RET :)

Great, good job! I really guessed something in this line, but I was
too lazy to go after it!

> I'm not very concerned about disk space, I was mostly thinking about
> maintenace resources, but I won't argue about that anymore as we
> clearly have different opinions.

I also meant maintenance resources.  That is, in my opinion, the only
case against thumbs.

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    BTW, I'm curious, is there something offending by the word "tumme"? I

No.  It sounds a bit like "tummy", but that is not offensive, just a
little confusing.

"Thumbs" would be better because it would be clearer.
Perhaps we should rename the two modes so that the name M-x thumbs
belongs to tumme.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> No.  It sounds a bit like "tummy", but that is not offensive, just a
> little confusing.

Yes, that has crossed my mind as well.

> "Thumbs" would be better because it would be clearer.
> Perhaps we should rename the two modes so that the name M-x thumbs
> belongs to tumme.

I would not object to that but others might. People used to exactly
how Thumbs works, for example. And what would we call the old Thumbs?
Hmm, Tumme maybe... :)

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

>> "Thumbs" would be better because it would be clearer.
>> Perhaps we should rename the two modes so that the name M-x thumbs
>> belongs to tumme.
>
> I would not object to that but others might. People used to exactly
> how Thumbs works, for example. And what would we call the old Thumbs?
> Hmm, Tumme maybe... :)

alias thumbnails=tumme

the longer name might express tumme's capacities and the alphabetic
order the preference to thumbs. (Well, a bit far fetched but still
...)

and maybe

alias image-viewer=thumbs
alias image-manager=tumme

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Drew Adams]

> alias thumbnails=tumme
> alias image-viewer=thumbs
> alias image-manager=tumme

I'm not (yet) very familiar with Tumme - ignore the following suggestion if
it's inappropriate.

If Tumme is intended to be or to become a general editor/browser/viewer of
the images in one or more directories, then that sounds Dired-like. In that
case, since Emacs users are already used to Dired, how about using "dired"
in the name: `dired-images' or `dired-img'?

My guess would be that the "thumbnail" aspect is not the most important one
for this feature - nearly all image editors/browsers/viewers use thumbnail
images. What is important for naming is that this is an
editor/browser/viewer of the images contained in a directory.

If I'm right about what Tumme does, I wonder if it shouldn't just be
integrated with Dired at some point (after the release)?

In Windows Explorer, for instance (the closest thing MS Windows has to
Dired), showing thumbnail images is just a display option - like Dired's
sorting or its display/hiding of certain fields. When images are present in
a directory, Dired could offer the additional key bindings etc. that provide
the features of Tumme.

Again, I'm not familiar with Tumme, so ignore this if it is off-base.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    > "Thumbs" would be better because it would be clearer.
    > Perhaps we should rename the two modes so that the name M-x thumbs
    > belongs to tumme.

    I would not object to that but others might. People used to exactly
    how Thumbs works, for example.

thumbs.el has never been in an Emacs release.  Maybe we should rename
it now.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > "Thumbs" would be better because it would be clearer.
>     > Perhaps we should rename the two modes so that the name M-x thumbs
>     > belongs to tumme.
>
>     I would not object to that but others might. People used to exactly
>     how Thumbs works, for example.
>
> thumbs.el has never been in an Emacs release.  Maybe we should rename
> it now.

Honestly, what's wrong with tumme ... it shows the Swedish origin.

If we are going to change this, why not call it image-browser.el or
some such and change the lisp prefix to imbr- 

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>     > "Thumbs" would be better because it would be clearer.
>>     > Perhaps we should rename the two modes so that the name M-x thumbs
>>     > belongs to tumme.
>>
>>     I would not object to that but others might. People used to exactly
>>     how Thumbs works, for example.
>>
>> thumbs.el has never been in an Emacs release.  Maybe we should rename
>> it now.
>
> Honestly, what's wrong with tumme ... it shows the Swedish origin.

You won't hit upon it with alias search or just by M-x thum <TAB>.
However, "thumbs" does not seem like much of an advantage here,
either.  Probably not what I'd be thinking of first.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> However, "thumbs" does not seem like much of an advantage here,
> either.  Probably not what I'd be thinking of first.

A good point. I have been so involved in all this, since I found that
Thumbs did not suit my needs and I felt the itch to create Tumme, that
I have taken for granted that "thumbs" is the best and the most logic
name. And as a Emacs CVS user I didn't realize that neither Thumbs nor
Tumme has been officially released as part of Emacs.

I guess, as Kim said, that something starting with "image" would be
better (although I like "tumme" best, because it is the cutest.. :-).
Both Thumbs and Tumme do much more than just showing the thumbnails of
images. Actually, the thumbnails themselves aren't what is important,
the important thing is (or was for me) to have a nice way to browse
and catalog, look at and maybe also manipulate images.

On the other hand, how logical is the name `gnus'... :)

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[David Kastrup]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

>> However, "thumbs" does not seem like much of an advantage here,
>> either.  Probably not what I'd be thinking of first.
>
> A good point. I have been so involved in all this, since I found that
> Thumbs did not suit my needs and I felt the itch to create Tumme, that
> I have taken for granted that "thumbs" is the best and the most logic
> name. And as a Emacs CVS user I didn't realize that neither Thumbs nor
> Tumme has been officially released as part of Emacs.
>
> I guess, as Kim said, that something starting with "image" would be
> better (although I like "tumme" best, because it is the cutest.. :-).
> Both Thumbs and Tumme do much more than just showing the thumbnails of
> images. Actually, the thumbnails themselves aren't what is important,
> the important thing is (or was for me) to have a nice way to browse
> and catalog, look at and maybe also manipulate images.

image-dired, dired-image, vdired...

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Markus Triska]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

> I guess, as Kim said, that something starting with "image" would be
> better

I find that too specific, since thumbnails can be useful for other
types of files as well. There's already a tumme.el patch for video
files, and more types (PDF etc.) can be supported in the future.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> > I guess, as Kim said, that something starting with "image" would be
> > better
>
> I find that too specific, since thumbnails can be useful for other
> types of files as well. There's already a tumme.el patch for video
> files, and more types (PDF etc.) can be supported in the future.

Hehe, OK :)

In a way, you are correct. What tumme does is just display files,
files that just happen to be images. I guess most of what it does can
be applied to many types of files. Still, the primary use is images
and I suspect that will be the case for a long time. But I might be
wrong.

Before you send your e-mail, I was about to comment on this, which David wrote:

> image-dired, dired-image, vdired...

Along those lines I think I like `image-browser' the best.

/Mathias

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    In a way, you are correct. What tumme does is just display files,
    files that just happen to be images. I guess most of what it does can
    be applied to many types of files. Still, the primary use is images
    and I suspect that will be the case for a long time. But I might be
    wrong.

It is mainly for images, but it is not the only way Emacs can display
images.
What is special about tumme is that it displays small versions of things.
I.e., thumbnails.

So it makes sense to use the term "thumb" in a name for this mode.
But we should use it in English, not in Swedish.  World-wide,
lots more Emacs users know English than know Swedish.

Even if Tumme is not limited to operating on (strictly speaking)
images, displaying on videos will be a less common use, and it is a
natural extension of displaying images.

So I think that it is also fine to use the word "image" in a new name
for Tumme.  There is no need to reject it.

How about `thumbnail-images'?

RE: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Drew Adams]

> It is mainly for images, but it is not the only way Emacs can display
> images.

It's not about image display; it's about image browsing.

> What is special about tumme is that it displays small versions
> of things. I.e., thumbnails.

That might be special or new for Emacs now, but nearly all image viewers and
editors use thumbnail images. I don't think that is special enough to be
reflected in the library name. Especially since this library could be
extended in the future to do more with images and other multimedia file
types.

As I said before:
>> What is important for naming is that this is an
>> editor/browser/viewer of the images contained in a directory.

and
>> it's not the thumbnails themselves that constitute the feature
>> - it's the extension of editing/browsing/viewing to new file
>> types, including images.

Tumme adds image browsing to Emacs. It extends Dired-like behavior to other
file types and displays thumbnail images of those files. That thumbnail
images are used for image browsing is taken for granted by users, a
no-brainer. The thumbnail feature will become less novel/noticeable in the
future, and the library might well be extended to do more things with the
files and treat more file types.

I suggest emphasizing the library's Dired-like, image-browser behavior. I
also propose integrating it with Dired, after the release. A name that
suggests an extension of Dired to images etc. is appropriate. I suggested
`dired-images' and `dired-img'. `dired-media' and `dired-view' are other
possibilities, leaving open what gets viewed.

If there are no plans to integrate Tumme with Dired, then perhaps
`img-browser', `media-browse', `media-view', or something like that. If
there are plans to add image editing, then perhaps `image-edit'.

> So it makes sense to use the term "thumb" in a name for this mode....
> How about `thumbnail-images'?

I don't think so. What Tumme adds to Emacs is a practical way to browse a
collection of images. That includes using thumbnail images...of course.
Thumbnails might be a novelty for Emacs now, but they are standard for any
image browser. A user doesn't load such a library in order to see
thumbnails, but to browse a directory of images.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[David Kastrup]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> It is mainly for images, but it is not the only way Emacs can display
>> images.
>
> It's not about image display; it's about image browsing.
>
>> What is special about tumme is that it displays small versions
>> of things. I.e., thumbnails.
>
> That might be special or new for Emacs now, but nearly all image viewers and
> editors use thumbnail images. I don't think that is special enough to be
> reflected in the library name. Especially since this library could be
> extended in the future to do more with images and other multimedia file
> types.
>
> As I said before:
>>> What is important for naming is that this is an
>>> editor/browser/viewer of the images contained in a directory.
>
> and
>>> it's not the thumbnails themselves that constitute the feature
>>> - it's the extension of editing/browsing/viewing to new file
>>> types, including images.
>
> Tumme adds image browsing to Emacs. It extends Dired-like behavior to other
> file types and displays thumbnail images of those files. That thumbnail
> images are used for image browsing is taken for granted by users, a
> no-brainer. The thumbnail feature will become less novel/noticeable in the
> future, and the library might well be extended to do more things with the
> files and treat more file types.
>
> I suggest emphasizing the library's Dired-like, image-browser
> behavior. I also propose integrating it with Dired, after the
> release.

Too late.  Try C-t C-h in dired.

-- 
David Kastrup

RE: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Drew Adams]

> > I also propose integrating it with Dired, after the release.
>
> Too late.  Try C-t C-h in dired.

Good. All the more reason to name the file `dired-<something>'. This is a
dired extension, akin to dired-x; it is not about thumbnail images per se.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

I don't find your arguments entirely convincing for rejecting all
other names, but names that follows your ideas could be good ones.
I think of `browse-images' and `image-dired'.  The latter is better
since it is more specific.

We should rename tumme now, one way or another, before it is in a release.
Would someone please do this?

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Nick Roberts]

Richard Stallman writes:
 > I don't find your arguments entirely convincing for rejecting all
 > other names, but names that follows your ideas could be good ones.
 > I think of `browse-images' and `image-dired'.  The latter is better
 > since it is more specific.
 > 
 > We should rename tumme now, one way or another, before it is in a release.
 > Would someone please do this?

And presumably update the manual accordingly.  If it's called `image-dired' (or
`dired-image' even), perhaps the node should be moved inside the current one for
dired.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Chong Yidong]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I don't find your arguments entirely convincing for rejecting all
> other names, but names that follows your ideas could be good ones.
> I think of `browse-images' and `image-dired'.  The latter is better
> since it is more specific.
>
> We should rename tumme now, one way or another, before it is in a release.
> Would someone please do this?

This is a spectacularly bad idea, but I guess this is one of those
"avoid weeks of useless argument" situations.

So, fine.

I renamed "tumme" to "thumbnails".  I found "image-dired" unsuitable
because there would be functions called "image-dired-dired-next-line"
and so forth (which can't be renamed "image-dired-next-line" because
there is already such a function).  Also, tumme was not *only* used
with Dired.

[Cue 1000 line essay by Drew Adams about why "thumbnails" is a poor
choice of name.  Whatever, dude.]

RE: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Drew Adams]

> > We should rename tumme now, one way or another, before it is in
> > a release. Would someone please do this?
>
> This is a spectacularly bad idea, but I guess this is one of those
> "avoid weeks of useless argument" situations.
>
> So, fine.
>
> I renamed "tumme" to "thumbnails".  I found "image-dired" unsuitable
> because there would be functions called "image-dired-dired-next-line"
> and so forth (which can't be renamed "image-dired-next-line" because
> there is already such a function).  Also, tumme was not *only* used
> with Dired.
>
> [Cue 1000 line essay by Drew Adams about why "thumbnails" is a poor
> choice of name.  Whatever, dude.]

Come off it, "dude". Trolling? I'll bite.

I entered this thread near its end - 9 days after it started. It had already
long since (on its 5th day) moved to a discussion of the file name.

For the record, I don't really care. "tumme" is fine with me, as are
"hotdog", "falafel", "chong", and "dpsht". Really. I named two of my own
libraries "icicles" and "doremi" - I have no problem with animal, vegetal,
mineral, whimsical, nonsensical, and non-English names.

I supported the thought, argued first by others, that this is not really
about thumbnails. Mathias agreed that "the thumbnails themselves aren't what
is important". IF we're looking for a descriptive English name, then the
argument is that "thumbnails" is not it.

A day before my first post, Dieter suggested "image-viewer" and
"image-manager" - very close to the discussion's fix-point, it turns out. I
argued that Tumme is Dired-like and could have "dired" in the name. I
emphasized Dired and viewing or browsing of images, as opposed to
thumbnails. I offered "dired-images", "dired-img", "dired-media",
"dired-view", `img-browser', `media-browse', `media-view', and `image-edit'.

Kim suggested "image-browser". David mentioned that "thumbs" doesn't help
you find the library, and he suggested "image-dired", "dired-image", and
"vdired". Mathias agreed that "image-browser" is best, and said that this is
about browsing, cataloging, viewing, and manipulating images.

Only Richard argued that "what is special about tumme is that it
displays...thumbnails." He suggested "thumbnail-images". I argued that
thumbnails were not special and not what this is about. Richard was
ultimately convinced by others, and he suggested "browse-images" and
"image-dired". Nick mentioned "dired-image".

That sounds to me like a general circling around the same terms by pretty
much everyone, and more or less agreement that thumbnails is not the way to
go. The keywords "image", "browse", and "dired" were mentioned over and
over. My own opinion and arguments do not stand out from the crowd here.

So what do you do? You rename it "thumbnails", and you personalize the
discussion with sarcasm directed at me. Whatever, dude - hope you got your
rocks off. Library `thumbnails.el' will stand as a testimonial to your
frustration in dealing with others and your efficiency in "avoiding weeks of
useless argument". Next question...

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 4/22/07, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

> So what do you do? You rename it "thumbnails", and you personalize the
> discussion with sarcasm directed at me. Whatever, dude - hope you got your
> rocks off. Library `thumbnails.el' will stand as a testimonial to your
> frustration in dealing with others and your efficiency in "avoiding weeks of
> useless argument". Next question...

FWIW, I agree with Drew here. And I think "thumbnails" is an
"spectacularly bad" name.

Also, I appreciate that Chong's expeditious style has done wonders to
bring the release closer. Still, sometimes I'm left wondering why
something was rushed in.

             Juanma

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> > So what do you do? You rename it "thumbnails", and you personalize the
> > discussion with sarcasm directed at me. Whatever, dude - hope you got your
> > rocks off. Library `thumbnails.el' will stand as a testimonial to your
> > frustration in dealing with others and your efficiency in "avoiding weeks of
> > useless argument". Next question...
>
> FWIW, I agree with Drew here. And I think "thumbnails" is an
> "spectacularly bad" name.

I was surprised that of all options, "thumbnails" was used, when the
arguments from most people suggests "image-dired" would be the best.
That name gives us both the word "image" which is good for identifying
what it is about, and the word "dired", which is good because it shows
it is a kind of extension to Dired. I agree that there are some
variable and function names that looks a bit goofy with "dired" in
them twice, but it does not strike me as a big problem.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[David Kastrup]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

> I was surprised that of all options, "thumbnails" was used, when the
> arguments from most people suggests "image-dired" would be the best.
> That name gives us both the word "image" which is good for
> identifying what it is about, and the word "dired", which is good
> because it shows it is a kind of extension to Dired. I agree that
> there are some variable and function names that looks a bit goofy
> with "dired" in them twice, but it does not strike me as a big
> problem.

User-accessible variables/options/functions should be fixed to be
non-goofy before the release since it does not make sense doing that
afterwards and carry the respective obsolete-variable baggage around.

Ungoofication of internals can be left until after the release, I
guess.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 4/22/07, Mathias Dahl <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree that there are some
> variable and function names that looks a bit goofy with "dired" in
> them twice, but it does not strike me as a big problem.

Not to mention that such "goofy" names aren't exactly uncommon in the sources :)

             Juanma


(defvar calc-prev-prev-char
(defvar crisp-last-last-command
(defvar dev-glyph-glyph-hash
(defvar dev-glyph-glyph-regexp
(defvar dev-glyph-glyph-2
(defvar dev-glyph-glyph-2-hash
(defvar dev-glyph-glyph-2-regexp
(defvar knd-glyph-glyph-hash
(defvar knd-glyph-glyph-regexp
(defvar tml-glyph-glyph-hash
(defvar tml-glyph-glyph-regexp
(defvar ange-ftp-ftp-name-arg
(defvar ange-ftp-ftp-name-res
(defvar find-tag-tag-order
(defconst cal-html-html-subst-list
(defvar gud-last-last-frame
(defvar flyspell-pre-pre-buffer
(defvar flyspell-pre-pre-point
(defun widget-value-value-get
(defun widget-default-default-get
(defun cust-print-print-object
(defun cust-print-print-circular
(defun gnus-group-group-name
(defun gnus-group-group-level
(defun gnus-group-group-indentation
(defun gnus-group-group-unread
(defun gnus-score-score-files
(defun gnus-score-score-files-1
(defun gnus-face-face-function
(defun gnus-server-server-name
(defun gnus-gnus-to-quick-newsrc-format
(defun gnus-gnus-to-newsrc-format
(defun mailcap-mailcap-entry-passes-test
(defun message-reduce-to-to-cc
(defun mm-uu-uu-filename
(defun mm-uu-uu-extract
(defun tibetan-tibetan-to-transcription
(defun mail-mail-reply-to
(defun mail-mail-followup-to
(defun mh-mh-forward-message
(defun mh-mh-attach-file
(defun mh-mh-compose-type
(defun mh-mh-compose-anon-ftp
(defun mh-mh-compose-external-compressed-tar
(defun mh-mh-compose-external-type
(defun mh-mh-to-mime
(defun mh-mh-quote-unescaped-sharp
(defun mh-mh-to-mime-undo
(defun mh-mh-directive-present-p
(defun ange-ftp-ftp-name
(defun ange-ftp-ftp-process-buffer
(defun browse-url-url-at-point
(defun tramp-tramp-file-p
(defun idlwave-shell-shell-frame
(defun idlwave-shell-shell-command
(defun m4-m4-buffer
(defun m4-m4-region
(defun org-format-table-table-html
(defun org-format-table-table-html-using-table-generate-source
(defun reftex-isearch-isearch-search

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 4/22/07, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not to mention that such "goofy" names aren't exactly uncommon in the sources :)

Including user options, BTW:

(defcustom expand-expand-hook
(defcustom forms-forms-scroll
(defcustom forms-forms-jump
(defcustom eshell-glob-include-dot-dot
(defcustom uce-uce-separator
(defcustom ange-ftp-ftp-program-name
(defcustom ange-ftp-ftp-program-args
(defcustom auto-show-show-left-margin-threshold
(defcustom gdb-use-colon-colon-notation
(defcustom python-python-command
(defcustom org-export-html-html-helper-timestamp

             Juanma

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Chong Yidong]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

> I was surprised that of all options, "thumbnails" was used, when the
> arguments from most people suggests "image-dired" would be the best.
> That name gives us both the word "image" which is good for identifying
> what it is about, and the word "dired", which is good because it shows
> it is a kind of extension to Dired. I agree that there are some
> variable and function names that looks a bit goofy with "dired" in
> them twice, but it does not strike me as a big problem.

Well, if you can live with it, fine.  I moved "thumbnails" to
"image-dired".

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Robert J. Chassell]

I hate to say it, but it makes sense to convert all the functions
`tumme' to a name that starts with `dired' rather than `thumbnails'.

`Thumbnails' are common and becoming more so.  That name is no good.

I know that 17 variables and functions in what used to be called
`tumme.el' have `dired' in their names.  They will have to be changed.

Suppose the name chosen is `dired-view'.  (That name does not
distinguish between static images and movies.  People who drive cars
and who listen, the `situationally blind', will not `view' them -- and
the rest of us do not want them to.)

For convenience, the `dired-view' part of the name should always be
first even when the command is not for dired, such as
`thumbnails-thumb-name'.

(Documentation needs a human look since it does not follow functions'
and variables' names.  Thus, the documentation string for the variable
`thumbnails-thumbnail-buffer' says "Thumbnails's thumbnail buffer."

(It should be changed to a line such as "Dired View mode's thumbnail buffer.")

I suggest the following name changes:

    thumbnails-dired-disp-props --> dired-view-disp-props
    thumbnails-dired-insert-marked-thumbs --> dired-view-insert-marked-thumbs
    thumbnails-dired-after-readin-hook --> dired-view-after-readin-hook
    thumbnails-toggle-dired-display-properties --> 
        dired-view-toggle-dired-display-properties
    thumbnails-dired-with-window-configuration --> 
        dired-view-dired-with-window-configuration
    thumbnails-associated-dired-buffer --> dired-view-associated-dired-buffer
    thumbnails-dired-next-line --> dired-view-next-line 
    thumbnails-dired-previous-line --> dired-view-previous-line
    thumbnails-dired-file-marked-p --> dired-view-file-marked-p
    thumbnails-jump-original-dired-buffer --> 
        dired-view-jump-original-dired-buffer
    thumbnails-setup-dired-keybindings --> 
        dired-view-setup-dired-keybindings
    thumbnails-dired-display-external --> dired-view-display-external
    thumbnails-associated-dired-buffer-window --> 
        dired-view-associated-dired-buffer-window
    thumbnails-dired-display-image --> dired-view-display-image
    thumbnails-dired-comment-files --> dired-view-comment-files
    thumbnails-dired-display-properties --> dired-view-display-properties
    thumbnails-dired-edit-comment-and-tags --> dired-view-edit-comment-and-tags

Also, instances of 
    thumbnails-thumb 
should probably be converted to 
    dired-view-thumb
and instances of 
    thumbnails-thumbnail
to 
    dired-view

I hardly ever look at images or movies.  Indeed, I know so little that
was confused by the similarity between

    ;;; thumbs.el --- Thumbnails previewer for images files
    ;;; thumbnails.el --- use dired to browse and manipulate your images

which appeared in this morning's CVS.  Had I not known that Mathias
Dahl wrote tumme.el, I would not have known which to choose.
Doubtless I have left out parts.  Making the changes will be hard, but
will be easier for someone who knows the topic.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         bob@gnu.org
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

>
> I hardly ever look at images or movies.  Indeed, I know so little that
> was confused by the similarity between
>
>     ;;; thumbs.el --- Thumbnails previewer for images files
>     ;;; thumbnails.el --- use dired to browse and manipulate your images
>

It's mainly about this ambiguous situation in the manual of Emacs.

As far as I can tell, there will likely be a strong recommendation of
tumme aka thumbnails aka dired-image (or whatever 8-)) in the manual.
And thumbs will remain as an option for people who long for the
freedom of looking for alternatives.  (At least for the viewing part
of tumme, less so for the image managing part.)

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[David Kastrup]

Dieter Wilhelm <dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> writes:

> "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:
>
>>
>> I hardly ever look at images or movies.  Indeed, I know so little that
>> was confused by the similarity between
>>
>>     ;;; thumbs.el --- Thumbnails previewer for images files
>>     ;;; thumbnails.el --- use dired to browse and manipulate your images
>>
>
> It's mainly about this ambiguous situation in the manual of Emacs.
>
> As far as I can tell, there will likely be a strong recommendation
> of tumme aka thumbnails aka dired-image (or whatever 8-)) in the
> manual.  And thumbs will remain as an option for people who long for
> the freedom of looking for alternatives.  (At least for the viewing
> part of tumme, less so for the image managing part.)

They would have this freedom even if we did not distribute thumbs as
part of Emacs.  That might be the least confusing option.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

>> As far as I can tell, there will likely be a strong recommendation
>> of tumme aka thumbnails aka dired-image (or whatever 8-)) in the
>> manual.  And thumbs will remain as an option for people who long for
>> the freedom of looking for alternatives.  (At least for the viewing
>> part of tumme, less so for the image managing part.)
>
> They would have this freedom even if we did not distribute thumbs as
> part of Emacs.  That might be the least confusing option.

Yes, one could get thumbs from some archive, but in this case the
burden would be on the user, in the other case "only" on the Emacs
maintainers.  I think confusion here can easily be avoided with a
clear recommendation.

On the other hand people argued intelligently about a better name for
tumme.  This should apply also to thumbs, maybe it is not worth the
effort, shortly before this release and it would be better and cleaner
(this time) to leave thumbs out.

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Drew Adams]

> > I guess, as Kim said, that something starting with "image" would be
> > better
>
> I find that too specific, since thumbnails can be useful for other
> types of files as well. There's already a tumme.el patch for video
> files, and more types (PDF etc.) can be supported in the future.

And, as I and someone else wrote, it's not the thumbnails themselves that
constitute the feature - it's the extension of editing/browsing/viewing to
new file types, including images.

It sounds to me as if this is really an extension of Dired - or it should
be. It sounds as if we're just extending our file editor/browser/viewer to
provide features for other specific file types. Just as `Z' in Dired works
on compressed files, so some Tumme keys work on image files.

In that case, as I wrote a few minutes ago, this is, or this should be, akin
to dired-x: an extension of Dired. And the name should then be
dired-<something>.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> It sounds to me as if this is really an extension of Dired

That is exactly how it started. I had a couple of thousand photos that
I needed to tag/categorize and do some clean up in. All tools I tried
had limitations I didn't like so I came to think that the already
super mega ultra powerful Dired + some handy image utility functions
would probably suit my needs. At first I thought I'd just write some
small interactive defuns which I could use in keyboard macros. But
then it started to grow. And grow. And grow... And here we are now...

Most stuff that Tumme does are meant to be used from Dired. What Tumme
lacks is some of the image editing functions that Thumbs provides in
its two modes (it has the same two modes as Tumme, one for the
thumbnails and one for the full-size image).

Most, if not all, of these editing functions would be trivial to add
(Tumme already do some of them, or similar), it mostly consist of
calling the convert tools with the appropriate options (here, Thumbs
has better abstractions for doing this) but I currently don't have any
"itch" in this area...

The only editing commands implemented in Tumme are for rotating
images, again because that is what I needed. Apart from also being
able to rotate images, Thumbs can do the following: enlarge, shrink,
emboss, resize and set the image as wallpaper ("set root"). It can
also save the result of any editing done, to a new file. I can see how
these commands could be handy sometimes although I personally will
fire up Gimp whenever I need to do such operations.

Tumme has other focus points. It has all these commands for tagging
images (or files in general, actually) and I have tried to add various
commands for easy navigation between the Dired buffer and thumbnail
buffer, etc. It has some commands to work with the EXIF information
included in photos taken with a digital camera. Again, commands that
was needed when I needed to do what I did... :)

> It sounds as if we're just extending our file editor/browser/viewer to
> provide features for other specific file types. Just as `Z' in Dired works
> on compressed files, so some Tumme keys work on image files.

Yup.

/Mathias

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Stefan Monnier]

> If we are going to change this, why not call it image-browser.el or
> some such and change the lisp prefix to imbr- 

And what about the next image browser that we're going to include in
Emacs-24?  Is that going to be "image-browser++"?

I think it's good to distinguish names from descriptions.
So "Tumme" is the name and it's description can be "An image browser".


        Stefan

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Mathias Dahl]

> And what about the next image browser that we're going to include in
> Emacs-24?  Is that going to be "image-browser++"?

Speaking of which, I am surprised we haven't seen any tumme+.el from
Drew yet...

*dodging*

:)

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    I think it's good to distinguish names from descriptions.
    So "Tumme" is the name and it's description can be "An image browser".

Names that indicate what the feature does are clearer and better names.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    The point for retaining thumbs is that one can't please everybody with
    one approach.  From a user's perspective I think offering choice
    outstrips every other disadvantage concerning maintainability,
    consistency, etc.

Many users find that "more choice" adds up to "complexity" and
"uncertainty".  It is therefore usually much better to provide just
one feature for a certain job than to provide two.

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Dieter Wilhelm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     The point for retaining thumbs is that one can't please everybody with
>     one approach.  From a user's perspective I think offering choice
>     outstrips every other disadvantage concerning maintainability,
>     consistency, etc.
>
> Many users find that "more choice" adds up to "complexity" and
> "uncertainty".  It is therefore usually much better to provide just
> one feature for a certain job than to provide two.

In the general case you are right but here its easier.  What is wrong
with the following idea?

  "We recommend tumme for you as an image viewing and - management
  system. But for the viewing part we did not spare any effort to
  provide--especially for You--an alternative."

(Warning: Now its getting nearly metaphysical.)
-----------------------------------------------
Besides user choice (1) there might be two additional points to
consider.

(2) Competition and innovation

  Someone might grab thumbs and make an even more complete tumme out
  of it.

(3) Rewarding the work of package creators

  dieter@debby:/tmp$ head -6 thumbs.el 
  ;;; thumbs.el --- Thumbnails previewer for images files

  ;; Copyright (C) 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

  ;; Author: Jean-Philippe Theberge <jphiltheberge@videotron.ca>
  ;; Maintainer: FSF

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Emacs manual mentioning thumbs mode but not tumme

[Richard Stallman]

    I don't think it does do the same job, but then I don't use either.  It
    would be nice if someone who does use both could confirm if this was true
    or not before talking about removing it.

I am interested in hearing a report from someone who actually uses both.
However, in the broad sense, they do do the same job:
browsing directories of images.  The difference is only in how they do it.