From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim X Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs ignores modified state of "untitled" buffer Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 11:04:24 +1000 Organization: Unlimited download news at news.astraweb.com Message-ID: <87ljb3ldrb.fsf@rapttech.com.au> References: <51707DDA-8D52-4D9F-9FD4-461987F2DEDE@nf.mpg.de> <8E1EF5747B7A4183A0873F02FDBBF398@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291823753 1699 80.91.229.12 (8 Dec 2010 15:55:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 15:55:53 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 08 16:55:49 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMMs-0003IN-Qw for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 16:55:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39295 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQMMs-0001A8-6E for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:55:46 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!news.glorb.com!news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:BjMz4cmhZdth9tmMri1KLRJ1g1k= Original-Lines: 93 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 7395e124.news.astraweb.com Original-X-Trace: DXC=d94^^ZV; 4hIRm_f?\>0G3FL?0kYOcDh@J7kJDMPlS\HDZ@SPGO[l[gGF[JOI\25FDK48YXk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:75568 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: >> > You've offered this as command `switch-to-new-buffer' and >> > put it on the `Buffers' menu as `Select New Buffer'. >> > >> > I would prefer that it be considered an improved behavior >> > for `Visit New File', which is currently just `find-file'. >> > The use of your command is, I think, for new file buffers >> > only, so that intention should be reflected in both the command >> > name and menu-item name. The `Buffers' menu is the wrong >> > place for this, IMO. >> > >> > So I would suggest changing the command name to something >> > like `new-file' or `visit-new-file' and (more importantly) >> > replacing the `File' > `Visit New File' menu item with it. >> >> The term "visit" has a very specific meaning in Emacs, and >> switch-to-new-buffer doesn't actually visit a file >> (buffer-file-name is nil). I would prefer a name >> like open-new-file, defined an alias for switch-to-new-buffer. > > OK by me. But if you keep the original name also, I'd suggest modifying it to > `switch-to-new-file-buffer'. It is a buffer intended for a new file; it is not > just a new buffer. > > `open' is not really clearer here than `visit', but it is less specific. It is > true that in Emacs we speak of "visiting" a file as reading its content into a > buffer. > > Whether `buffer-file-name' is nil at that moment, so the buffer is not actually > visiting a file yet, is less important than the purpose (use) of the command, > which is to create a buffer that will be associated with a new file. The buffer > switched to is intended for visiting a file, even if that file does not yet > exist. > >> It seems to me the File menu entries are named backwards: >> "Visit New File" should be "Open New File", "Open File..." >> should be "Visit File...", and "Open Directory..." should be >> "Visit Directory..." > > IMO, `Open' in a menu item is OK for both existing and new. But you are correct > that in Emacs jargon the more correct term for an existing file would be > `Visit'. > > I would propose (and have proposed ;-)) simply `New File' as the menu item. It > is common nowadays to have a menu item `New' for creation when the object to be > created is clear, and `New Foo' to make clear that it creates a foo object. (I > use `New File' and `New Directory' in my own code, `menu-bar+.el'.) > > Whether we use `Visit' or `Open' for an existing whatever is not so important. > What is important is to clearly distinguish the case of creation (`New'). > >> > Those who are most likely to use such a menu item are >> > newbies who expect that behavior. Any Emacs veteran who prefers >> > `find-file' will not be likely to use the menu and choose >> > `Visit New File'. And it is clear what a `new-file' command is for. >> > >> > I agree with Lennart that you should think about proposing >> > this to emacs-devel. I would support it, especially with the >> > changes I just mentioned. >> >> OK, we'll see how it goes. > I think I agree with Drew's points here. Just adding my 2 cents worth in support. Having said that, I also want to highlight that this sort of nameing stuff is very difficult to get right and we need to be very careful. I agree with some of the criticisms of some emacs 'jargon' being old fashioned or outdated, but I have also noticed that many of the suggested changes are made by people who are ignorant of some of the more subtle meanings that can be important, but wold be lost if ore 'modern' terminology is used. I also have a slight concern that beginning to update terms to reflect current trends has the danger that we will spend too much time chasing a moving target as trends change. Having modern' terminology is IMO less important than having consistent terminology. It may be counter productive to use one set of terms on the menu for 'newbies' that are more familiar or in-line with those used on lesser systems and sticking to older terms 'under the hood'. Most newbies that stick with emacs for any time will at some point want to start customizing and writing a bit of elisp. Having one set of terminology for the menus and another for the functions/commands those menu options run will make their life more difficult and frustrating. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au