From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 01:46:17 +0200 Message-ID: <87lj91zrqu.fsf@telefonica.net> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <270AD461F0F14E549F82D88785A23A0A@us.oracle.com> <876306140d.fsf@telefonica.net> <24CFA9D538E942AEA803109469898525@us.oracle.com> <87vd86ymc3.fsf@telefonica.net> <8E35C169F19A420F949F4FA5DE35F6AC@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279928807 26489 80.91.229.12 (23 Jul 2010 23:46:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 23:46:47 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 24 01:46:46 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcRwz-0005S7-SQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 01:46:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51138 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcRwz-00015L-AK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:46:45 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=43711 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcRwt-00015C-8G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:46:40 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcRwr-0004X1-SL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:46:39 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:60304) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcRwr-0004WY-Gu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:46:37 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcRwn-0005Pl-Fq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 01:46:33 +0200 Original-Received: from 83.42.13.171 ([83.42.13.171]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 01:46:33 +0200 Original-Received: from ofv by 83.42.13.171 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 01:46:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 70 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 83.42.13.171 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:LB62bd3oiPi97mHywnue2S37jkA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127731 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: >> For a long period of the PC era, Emacs was the king of the >> text editors for technical users. > > Really? Don't let a vi user hear you claim that. In my (anecdotal) > experience, even in software research environments the number of vi > users has at least equalled that of Emacs users. And in software > development I've seen even more vi use than in research. I still do. Read again what I wrote. There is no claim there about the number of users Emacs had. [snip] > Behind or ahead, ahead or behind... It's _not_ a popularity contest. > Dunno why this popularity thing keeps coming up here (and on > help-gnu-emacs) from time to time. Some popularity is indispensable, unless you are happy with Emacs as a private project. [snip] >> Nowadays Emacs lacks behind on productivity features > > Haven't we all agreed that Emacs could be improved by adding some of > those productivity features? And that is so even though we have not > agreed that Emacs is "behind" generally. But just what are the > "productivity features" that we might like to add to Emacs? > > There you go again, slip-sliding from (1) "productivity features", > which no one argues against and with some Eclipse features serving as > oft-cited examples, to (2) the idea that the Emacs default key > bindings need to be those that a newbie is already used to in other > apps. I didn't propose (2) as a must-have. I think that dismissing the proposal arguing that "newbies keep coming" and "there is no proof of people giving up on Emacs because the keybindings" is hand-waving. With the keybindings issue, either you change them or you make an effort and adapt the documentation so the newbie gets the message: "yes, we know this is different from what you know and may be a pain at first, but hang on, it will pay back." [snip] >> stay alive as living fossils just because the efforts of >> some enthusiasts. > > Not to worry. Emacs will be digging up your and my remains and > chuckling about them, long, long after we - enthusiasts or not - have > turned from living fossils to dead ones. > > The fact that you think that Emacs is "going the way of...a living > fossil" shows how far out into the ozone you've wandered. Oh, this is funny. I hope that you are connected enough with reality to admit that the percentage of programmers using Emacs is dwindling. I claim something stronger: the absolute number of people using Emacs is decreasing too. No, no proof other than my personal, anecdotical experience. Nor you have proof about the contrary. Now, you assume that Emacs will be alive and kicking forever (like the PDP-10 OS?) and act consequently (or rather, don't act.) I assume that Emacs' future is not promising, and try to improve it. What attitude is best for Emacs? (This reminds me so much of the climate change affaire.) [snip]