From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Vijay Lakshminarayanan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Git mirrors Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:02:36 +0530 Message-ID: <87lisq8bu3.fsf@gmail.com> References: <8762k095n4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871uuksdxi.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lissh32y.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87zkh8e286.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87d3e4gttq.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ehyjrhxh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3e2rfte.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <878voqfiaw.fsf@wanadoo.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1318433585 26081 80.91.229.12 (12 Oct 2011 15:33:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:33:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juanma Barranquero , "Stephen J. Turnbull" , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 12 17:32:56 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RE0nd-0001Tn-1S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:32:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44938 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RE0nc-0006v2-KG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:32:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46823) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RE0na-0006uV-73 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:32:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RE0nY-0007Ce-Jy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:32:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pz0-f47.google.com ([209.85.210.47]:62587) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RE0nY-00076x-Eo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:32:48 -0400 Original-Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4so310575pzk.6 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:32:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1XB3GVGdNa488UBSv5yhN01CxVVwIoBevakvHj8wfow=; b=tL/nyfPZT4Cco0b1HyVlB6/5pMKrPsUh7icn33jRP7tfAI6V9AbeFu40FadPdgkIGR w+59c8FFJAQvZVV1e3SlIOkXgav6zL8lr5TO+PHI1IylFlZP3m1F+FhDeZsf48YV1L5h lCFB9mDCTubDl1QhOZ50K+Sa2YmxxauxtweB4= Original-Received: by 10.68.12.104 with SMTP id x8mr1933939pbb.79.1318433566932; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from BALROG ([59.92.10.65]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z1sm987616pbl.5.2011.10.12.08.32.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:32:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <878voqfiaw.fsf@wanadoo.es> (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22=D3scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:31:03 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (windows-nt) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.47 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:145027 Archived-At: =D3scar Fuentes writes: > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > [snip] > >>> I just object to the way =D3scar (inter alia) is being shouted down. >> >> =D3scar is using the past to complain about the present. > > The past is "choosing bzr over other Free alternatives was politicaly > motivated regardless of technical merit; the interests of GNU prevailed, > users were dismissed." I don't get this. Eli raised the same earlier. Yes, it was a political decision. What's wrong with that? > The present is "providing a convenient git mirror is considered not good > for GNU; once again, GNU is considered more important than users." Once again, I don't understand. There's a git mirror. It isn't perfect but they're working on it. > I always thought that Free Software is about the user, always the > user. But once you begin privileging some packages simply because they > abide to GNU, and viewing others as "not beneficial" because they don't, > irrespectively of its merit, then GNU starts looking as a menacing > entity, something dangerous that pretends to roll over your beloved > creations just because that's good for GNU's self-interest. Some projects are "not beneficial". The FSF and GNU Project have stated goals and aims. They are political in nature. When this is the case, the metrics used to measure merits of one project over another are different. It appears to me that you're entirely stuck upon so-called technical merits (git awesome; bzr sucks) which is an entirely different debate. >> His prerogative, but is not unlike complaining >> why Emacs is written in C and not C++. That's just not the tool that >> Emacs use. Please, do adapt. > > It is the other way around: the infrastructure must adapt to the needs > of users, whenever there are enough technical and human resources. If > some Emacs hackers feel more at home with > git/mercurial/whatever-other-Free-tool, why not simply provide it? How > could that be "not good" for GNU, the spearhead of Free Software? The > "do adapt" means, exactly, "down your throat!". There is no need for > that, other than political reasons. Those are damaging the user and > sending an unfriendly message to other Free projects. Emacs and several other GNU projects are the /only/ projects I know which officially make their sources available in multiple SCMs. You could go complain to the developers of, say, OpenJDK or FireFox and insist that they provide their sources in git/bzr. I doubt it'll go anywhere. Why you expect differently here is again beyond me. --=20 Cheers ~vijay Gnus should be more complicated.