From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:59:41 +0900 Message-ID: <87lhfihlb6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box> <87y4jkhqh5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87vbeoh3xm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150616221810.GB3403@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434524425 7244 80.91.229.3 (17 Jun 2015 07:00:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 07:00:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 17 09:00:16 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z57KS-0002xK-TG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 09:00:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44762 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z57KS-0005fJ-7e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 03:00:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59160) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z57KB-0005bk-8a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 02:59:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z57K7-0002cH-4V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 02:59:51 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:44820) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z57K6-0002a7-RM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 02:59:47 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 053801C387A; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:59:42 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D49131A2CA2; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:59:41 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <20150616221810.GB3403@acm.fritz.box> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" 83e5c3cd6be6 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187232 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Stephen. > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 09:50:29AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > > And Alan *is* a reactionary .... > > Yes. It's a time consuming and thankless task, but somebody's got > to do it. I agree with everything you write here about reactionaries, and my initial reaction also was reactionary. Probably for much the same reasons yours was and remains so, both in general and specific to the issue of "curly quotes". However, careful thought informed by 25+ years living in a non-ASCII culture convinces me that it is time for Emacs to move on. Move carefully, yes, cf. Emanuel Berg's post and my reply. But it's time. > > .... and a curmudgeon, .... > > I take exception to this. It's distinctly unparliamentary > language, I wouldn't know. I suspect if you grep the minutes of the English Parliament you would find occasional use. There are six uses in the Congressional Record for the 113th Congress, three of which are in articles titled "Tribute to Mr. X", and two in articles titled "IN MEMORY OF EMANUEL RAYMOND LEWIS, LIBRARIAN EMERITUS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES". It seems to me that that word puts you in excellent company, and that's how I meant it, but since you feel otherwise, I apologize and retract the word. > and then don't use it again unless you really do mean it. Be assured, I won't call you that again. > Emacs has options. In fact, it might be truer to say Emacs _is_ > options. We are all able enough to make new behaviours and > deviations from standard behaviours optional. The pertinent new > behaviour is not different in this respect. It is different in this respect. It is a change in the way Emacs Lisp programmers communicate with each other, and that is precisely why you oppose it. If it were intended to be purely cosmetic, or only used inside of user strings, then we already have various modes that will do that for those who want the behavior. I very much doubt Paul would have made those patches if this were about appearance only, but we'll have to see what he says. I can say I would be against it if it were about appearance, since we can already have that. Be warned: this battle has only just begun.[1] It will soon shake your windows and rattle your walls.[2] Footnotes: [1] That's not a threat. I don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind's blowing in this community today. [2] Thanks to Bob D. for these words, too.