From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ingo Lohmar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 21:22:11 +0100 Message-ID: <87lh5rcsgc.fsf@acer.localhost.com> References: <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> <838u1uuuau.fsf@gnu.org> <878u1um2xl.fsf@thinkpad.rath.org> <87fuw090k7.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83y49spuxt.fsf@gnu.org> <87pov4achc.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <20160308213635.GE6269@acm.fritz.box> <87pov3cur7.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <83a8m7o1ph.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457554967 32241 80.91.229.3 (9 Mar 2016 20:22:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:22:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 09 21:22:41 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1adkcv-0005sN-6T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 21:22:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44027 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adkcu-0006Ss-G7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 15:22:36 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40995) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adkce-0006RG-TC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 15:22:21 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adkcd-0000w5-VD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 15:22:20 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]:37291) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adkcY-0000s5-5A; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 15:22:14 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id p65so1736067wmp.0; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 12:22:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=gzTIdDiBhip2znfsE35RLRd4N/7U3A/rKq4+DQL1Mi0=; b=YWlDNVElbDcKGrUPtYeK8o8IzMw8104ttDu4fwXfuPiNZedvf45yKgjzjkwKfcPpW8 w5tvoyLhq4eKn63ZtXUbK0kV3hUJWBQmzmlpCkgkvsan9yc4q+V2Vm0JLLfVJS2lkheR nWPEASQIQ4A2AFHKPS3PBPQYnrGuskHo2szoD0CedrtG7vddyjJZZ15Imb16M6nYl293 SWdtyBcscrx/tav/JlWdctnm/jO+n5wSFg2FJjWx5Ys+E/XqDuZTPytttSQX5u7/ujov jtfZT01H7oMGX/L5lyHC/iegfy7p7GBeR842Yo1KWBQ4m2R2vaaz+PWUi4lMwPk27UsD kRsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=gzTIdDiBhip2znfsE35RLRd4N/7U3A/rKq4+DQL1Mi0=; b=fyIWBOI0m3SjcJTnVYy3uzj3yzorIN28ikZ/ZU8q3A9jj9Bm6u8jdLjgJozZc8ziSW wJLC0IAaJ9SwmfBeUIrxUI2RfyapTuaw7Wu0Fuc8I1/08RHroqcdd7kHb1j6yUXas3Vg i+BE471Jr7V1nvOV2CSSxcccFD+BKwUhphuWBEIyaaW8Pp52zUHMBK3SSZRnL/BBUUVI +AarLT18us4+RqXsKl0ubSd+WqvRNimMvHixuWvFW/VQtPvhn7lx14An6X7o2yFXqqSp IHtaeKe51XsPxVQWBCrNFmQSEpQEGZrnNuZkPT/TjvuCv6CMIF4WtyWiyFVSNRgz91PX qDjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKaVSR8K+fdWjcwd0zWn9FyVCQzAXVXzrTLcCHVBeGU2lYZfKYa662c9u31AixR4A== X-Received: by 10.28.5.203 with SMTP id 194mr151258wmf.101.1457554933423; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 12:22:13 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (xdsl-87-79-135-57.netcologne.de. [87.79.135.57]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u14sm261727wmu.8.2016.03.09.12.22.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Mar 2016 12:22:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83a8m7o1ph.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.20.2+113~g6332e6e (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/25.0.90.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201314 Archived-At: On Wed, Mar 09 2016 22:06 (+0200), Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> That's pretty much what I meant. It may not contain the information you >> (and I) would like to see in it, but it is highly reliable in that it is >> the message that was used to describe the commit. > > Yeah, it's a reliable lie. How helpful is that? This discussion is about the content, not the technical merits of immutability. As I said, I am happy to drop the nitpicking. >> I make a lot of mistakes in commit messages, and I do not agree that it >> is difficult to fix them before pushing. > > Indeed, it isn't difficult. But since mistakes do get pushed, I guess > people are not careful enough to review their commits before pushing, > or else we wouldn't be having this conversation, and there would be no > need for the procedures to correct pushed commits with mistaken log > messages. It happens to the most careful people, correct. > Telling the wrongdoer to clean up their mess surely does teach them a > lesson. It could well be the lesson we both agree is the best one: > review your commits before pushing. > > I hope you agree that NOT fixing the mistakes teaches them an entirely > different lesson, the one we think is undesirable: that mistakes don't > matter, and eventually that the log messages don't matter, as long as > they say _something_. We completely agree on the best lesson and the importance of fixing mistakes. We probably disagree on what is a good way to actually teach them the lesson. We also seem to disagree on good ways of "fixing", or ways to avoid the need for after-the-fact fixing. >> I cannot speak for anybody but myself. When I am a user of Emacs, >> trying to get an idea of what has changed on the level of detail that >> the Changelog provides, I would rather go to the authoritative source, >> if online (without any repository) at >> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git. > > I guess you never had to work in segregated networks, where access to > the outside world is not available. In any case, I was speaking mostly hypothetically. I am either interested in a high-level description of some changes that might affect me, or cool new things to try, in which case I look at NEWS. Or I am interested in details of what a function does differently now, or a changed call signature or whatever --- in that case, I have never found the Changelog to be sufficiently detailed. Instead I will look (on the next possible occasion) at the (commits that changed the) source code.