From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: Scott Randby <srandby@gmail.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 19:51:29 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87lh1gas7y.fsf@mbork.pl> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <8337ntvm2d.fsf@gnu.org>
On 2016-07-01, at 09:45, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: Scott Randby <srandby@gmail.com>
>> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 19:02:42 -0400
>>
>> On 06/30/2016 01:58 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
>> > > This seems to be a major part of your issue with Org mode. Could you
>> > > explain in some detail what you mean specifically by having to learn
>> > > basic Org mode before seeing what its features are?
>> >
>> > I don't remember -- it was years ago that I took a look at it
>> > and gave up. I don't have time to revisit it now.
>>
>> It is hard to take this criticism of Org seriously
>
> This discussion will be much more useful if people would not take it
> as an attack on Org. In particular, the criticism is not about Org
> from POV of the end user, it's about its design principles. IOW, the
> real subject of this discussion is how should we design large Emacs
> packages, and Org is just being used as an example, to have some
> context and some concrete instances of the abstract ideas. See the
> beginning of the discussion.
Well said. I agree that Org could be designed much better internally.
OTOH, I feel that the criticism might have been taken better if it had
been founded in at least rudimentary knowledge of Org.
> If people could stop being defensive about Org, and instead think more
> broadly, and perhaps bring some other examples into this discussion,
> we might actually reach some useful conclusions that could help us in
> the future.
>
> Please note that I am an Org user myself, albeit not a heavy user.
> When I need to make sense out of many tasks and manage them in a
> GTD-like manner, I use Org. Some of the more serious tasks of my work
> on Emacs, such as the bidirectional display, were managed via Org.
>
> But using Org and being fond of it doesn't mean we cannot learn from
> its design for the future, and it doesn't mean we cannot decide that
> an alternative design could yield a more useful set of feature that
> would be easier to learn than what we have now. It's a legitimate
> conclusion, and it doesn't in any way denigrate Org, because a package
> design isn't determined solely by its designers, it is determined by
> many other factors, like the available time and resources, on which no
> one has full control. Therefore, saying that an alternative design
> could yield better results doesn't put any blame on those who worked
> on the package, and shouldn't put those people on the defensive.
>
>> The Org community is very open to suggestions for improvement. If anyone
>> has specific suggestions for improvements to Org, instead of vague
>> pronouncements about alleged failures, then please send them to the Org
>> mailing list.
+1.
> This is exactly what this discussion is NOT about. Org's design is a
> fait accompli, and no one in their right mind will come up with
> suggestions to redesign it. Once again, this is not about some flaw
> in Org, it's about design principles of large Emacs packages.
>
>> it appears to me that perhaps incorporating Org into official Emacs
>> was the failure
>
> Now, this is uncalled-for, and factually incorrect.
Actually, I'd agree with that: Emacs release cycle is much longer than
Org's, and quite a few problems on Org's ML are results of mixing
included and installed versions of Org.
Best,
--
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-07-05 17:51 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 126+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2016-06-15 20:55 Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole (Was: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package) Robert Weiner
2016-06-15 21:53 ` Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole John Wiegley
2016-06-15 22:16 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-16 0:39 ` John Wiegley
2016-06-16 14:41 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-16 23:18 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-16 23:51 ` John Wiegley
2016-06-17 0:19 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-17 5:02 ` Tom
2016-06-17 15:29 ` raman
2016-06-17 23:54 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-18 16:47 ` Fabrice Popineau
2016-06-18 17:05 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-28 15:23 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-06-28 15:43 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-29 14:34 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-29 15:04 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-30 17:58 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-30 23:02 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-01 7:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-01 8:17 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2016-07-01 9:46 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-01 20:53 ` Tom
2016-07-05 18:24 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-01 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-01 23:01 ` Allen S. Rout
2016-07-03 0:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 18:21 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 19:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 19:53 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 14:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-06 15:41 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-01 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-02 7:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-03 0:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-01 18:38 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-01 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-01 21:11 ` Tom
2016-07-02 6:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-03 0:05 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 18:13 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:22 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-01 21:34 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-01 21:58 ` John Mastro
2016-07-02 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-02 9:13 ` Achim Gratz
2016-07-02 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-02 10:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 18:07 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 19:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 19:57 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-06 15:32 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-06 18:08 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-03 0:05 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-03 13:59 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-03 14:19 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-05 18:02 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-02 9:00 ` Joost Kremers
2016-07-02 9:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 18:17 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 17:51 ` Marcin Borkowski [this message]
2016-06-29 16:33 ` Tom
2016-06-29 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-06-29 20:04 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-29 22:15 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2016-06-30 2:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-06-30 13:41 ` Allen S. Rout
2016-07-03 0:08 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-29 17:30 ` Allen S. Rout
2016-06-29 20:04 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-30 8:26 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-03 22:36 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-04 13:58 ` Kaushal Modi
2016-07-04 21:20 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-04 21:33 ` Robert Weiner
2016-07-05 22:59 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 4:21 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:29 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 7:12 ` Nikolai Weibull
2016-07-06 22:30 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-07 12:09 ` Nikolai Weibull
[not found] ` <921c10a04c17462988c2821ed40582e7@DB5PR01MB1895.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
2016-07-06 8:06 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-07 21:54 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <33003e1e02b04d2db5ee60baff9a040f@HE1PR01MB1898.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
2016-07-08 12:23 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-09 16:56 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-10 6:47 ` chad brown
2016-07-10 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-04 21:33 ` Phillip Lord
2016-07-05 13:11 ` Etienne Prud'homme
2016-07-05 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 23:03 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 8:49 ` Joost Kremers
2016-07-07 21:54 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 10:44 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 16:16 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:22 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 17:26 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-07 22:01 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <<E1bKBHv-0000lE-Bw@fencepost.gnu.org>
2016-07-04 22:26 ` Drew Adams
2016-07-05 17:50 ` Nikolaus Rath
2016-07-05 20:30 ` joakim
2016-07-06 22:24 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-02 7:18 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-02 8:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 15:49 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-03 0:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 15:53 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:22 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-17 13:31 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2016-06-18 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-18 20:31 ` Fabrice Popineau
2016-06-19 11:49 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-19 12:36 ` Fabrice Popineau
2016-06-17 15:27 ` raman
2016-06-16 23:57 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-17 15:53 ` Karl Fogel
2016-06-18 18:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-20 18:15 ` Karl Fogel
2016-06-20 20:36 ` Tom
2016-06-28 15:28 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-06-16 8:44 ` Re:Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole (Was: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package) tumashu
2016-06-16 14:07 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-16 15:38 ` Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole raman
2016-06-16 16:06 ` Robert Weiner
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