From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:35:58 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87lg897kzl.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <83r2i4rmg7.fsf@gnu.org> <87o9d7bryw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <83va7fqlwe.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536581407 20262 195.159.176.226 (10 Sep 2018 12:10:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 12:10:07 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 10 14:10:03 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL0y-00057V-9V for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:10:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51337 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL34-00016B-Hu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:12:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48478) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL2n-00010Z-9v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:11:54 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzKzj-0003VH-42 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:08:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::1]:18777) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzKzi-0003Sw-TT; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:08:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536581321; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=hvflxWUOPF4VcS9koZFW3P8F/oKBR2PP7Qj0cwpslP0=; b=ckdTGVqhyCVhsymTkOsqd47oX432sWqGNo2QRV4e5O3PqawGi+nBQwY40y21rW9joH XowZAvB3Qup6CcosJr3G7qFTeYN+wqrKVwaC1yOK8ajN4XHPzI8m3BvotIBIcNP+3hxH q0q2PKPJtgFIC3hHLDhOJQD7sO6F+4B8MC5qiqFCVc25RMuwMWEG7ISzqq9KRa5yoLAk uPN/CIWBzECWaeVTjgIRyfoclbRozfuA5QVjmPY1xXPBWW4ocfUJnq2f9AOQ2+85Vf47 CEPc/WNjq3ziiYXBxpwlje4AgefzRNHgngD2Efkbd8FvPudLMNkWerF5Bu4C0Fc5wHAt c6/w== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u8AC7mGsA (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:07:48 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fzKyp-0000xP-Lb; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:07:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83va7fqlwe.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 09 Sep 2018 08:29:05 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229608 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: hw >> Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk >> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:23:53 +0200 >> >> > The Emacs tutorial already mentions the arrow keys, before it teaches >> > the more ergonomic cursor motion keys. >> >> My point is not which particular keys to use but that the tutorial >> doesn't fly because it makes false assumptions --- >> >> in this case about the efficiency with which certain keys can be pressed >> which largely depends on >> >> + the users and their skill-level in 10-finger typing, >> >> + the equipment in use and >> >> + the difficulty of un-learning the usage of arrow keys which might have >> already been practised to a rather high and extremely efficient >> skill-level over decades and is still needed everywhere else > > Yes, the tutorial makes a point of catering also for people who want > or can overcome these obstacles. I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'm seeing the tutorial repeating that you can use the cursor keys but should learn others because they are supposedly more efficient. > I see nothing wrong with that: if you are one of those who can't, just > ignore the part about ergonomic cursor motion keys. Does the tutorial say that when you use cursor keys, you can skip forward to line 322 and start reading there? >> --- which lead the tutorial to lengthly go into explanations about >> irrelevant key bindings rather than about relevant ones which prevents >> it from picking up beginners where they think they are so that >> confidence can be instilled in them that they can learn Emacs, and trust >> that Emacs isn't difficult to use at all. > > Are we talking about the same tutorial? Here's the actual text: > > * BASIC CURSOR CONTROL > ---------------------- > > Moving from screenful to screenful is useful, but how do you > move to a specific place within the text on the screen? > > There are several ways you can do this. You can use the arrow keys, > but it's more efficient to keep your hands in the standard position > and use the commands C-p, C-b, C-f, and C-n. [...] Yes, we are talking about the same tutorial. The tutorial uses the first 322 lines (26%) to go on and on about these movement keys. It is supposed to be *the* Emacs tutorial, not a keyboard tutorial. Do you really think that *the* Emacs tutorial should use its first 300+ lines to cover a non-issue? Isn't there anything much more interesting and far more important to learn about Emacs?