From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 23:12:22 -0500 Message-ID: <87lflcg0k9.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="62617"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 28 06:13:04 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1je9ui-000GBt-3C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 06:13:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48134 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1je9uh-00043v-05 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 00:13:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57602) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1je9u8-0003dj-FN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 00:12:28 -0400 Original-Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:45122) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1je9u7-0007HD-2K; Thu, 28 May 2020 00:12:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=JTfiyQBp+gU7+F9q6Ahip302GVt22QUSYSJW+M25r+I=; t=1590639146; x=1591848746; b=LAlysl51Ief4qGQuZK0ddHjLdkDvVOiGpVbhVjFvNyYZo9DKwo8+jj7mB/wcBYt1gfZ1FnOn5T sskpH770lLrihi7pMVUi0XKC01J2gfk6FXJGxeH+DinwELZe3RT9aivcupxdrEWOIBnmrrzQDcJ/m I+HZJfTSX1bO5klmTmr+VxZzehscIEbm98rnVfz/7WqIUNH+OreUTdYsjN2qDz6AoywD9H4tF3qAl D4GxTDKWGRhtQseXtbwnaXI/PmJS4rgwQOZ+MQDnl34v5iyEA0iOUyJs3ywWb6hl6FbBwXy30fjKW RitJfoOwLwkt6KhScBc8bvH1aGKc9xuTgQF+g==; Original-Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:52314 helo=floss) by newsp.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1je9u3-0008Kb-N0; Thu, 28 May 2020 04:12:23 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 14 May 2020 23:18:06 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.79.25.59; envelope-from=kfogel@red-bean.com; helo=newsp.red-bean.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/28 00:00:52 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251532 Archived-At: On 14 May 2020, Richard Stallman wrote: >>Another area is the keybinding space and the minibuffer. Just >>about every time I have watched a new user use Emacs, I have noticed >>how frequently they accidentally hit some key combination or sequence >>and wind up in some weird state that they never meant to be in -- and >>don't know how to get out of. > >We made this very simple a few years ago: Just keep typing C-g. >I guess these users don't know that. Sometimes they know that, but it's still stressful for them to have to do it. They don't like the sensation of getting into state they don't understand, and then having to type a magical quit-key to get out of that state. It makes them apprehensive about even using the editor -- they feel like they got bitten. >Can anyone thing of a better way to teach them about this? >It could teach them first about the minibuffer, then about C-g >to get out. It could copy the current minibuffer prompt >into the help screen to make the explanation clearer. > >The tricky part is how to detect when a user could use this help. I don't think the issue is ignorance about C-g. It's that people have a relationship with software interfaces in which they're not accustomed to being bitten. Even when the bite draws no blood, they still don't like the feeling. I can see directly that they don't like the feeling, that it's upsetting to them. I conjecture that part of the reason is that even if they quickly ascertain that everything's all right this time, they still have a (rational) fear that the next time the bite might actually cause harm -- e.g., that maybe they'll lose a file, or accidentally rename something, or that edits that they don't know about will be accidentally made somewhere. I haven't actually asked new users if that's their worry, but on the now-rare occasions when Emacs bites me, I worry about such things. Also, I've been using Emacs long enough to know that most likely nothing harmful happened, and that if I patiently unwind the state I'll be able to figure it all out. A newcomer does not have that comfort at first, and they can only acquire it through sustained exposure to the editor. Again, none of the above is meant to suggest that Emacs should change something. I'm just saying that we should be intentional about the kinds of users Emacs is likely to attract, and not make changes designed around people who are unlikely to be long-term Emacs users anyway. Best regards, -Karl