From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Philip K." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Repurpose one key and reserve it for third-party packages Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 23:48:42 +0100 Message-ID: <87lfbu9q5x.fsf@posteo.net> References: <7ef75c33936136eb3a20@heytings.org> <8735y56naf.fsf@posteo.net> <8ed9b43502ae9a36b057@heytings.org> <87tuqk6d9d.fsf@posteo.net> <3966473cc1ab9f104724@heytings.org> <87o8gr1oom.fsf@posteo.net> <87lfbubthl.fsf@posteo.net> <87tuqia845.fsf@posteo.net> <87pn16a1xn.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9090"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 11 23:49:45 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAKmO-0002GU-Op for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 23:49:44 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33406 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAKmM-00006T-Om for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:49:42 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40450) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAKlX-000069-3E for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:48:51 -0500 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:58107) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAKlT-0000XO-Da for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:48:50 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462E52400FD for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 23:48:44 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1613083724; bh=D4uArCuqYsxg35LlfQlatmv6U/ClqRo9/Cu4D1fYtLk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=nUJno4LoAQOiSrTTi4epKvItbcZUEL5DXkXVQwSoSEXJKXBPbB6S0t1DQOD7lT2Eb Nn4TxSbs+39UpfBTxQ7uET+E/YT5d3fZRah+WA21SNgVNtSJWfSPt94q30xCLBLqr2 25lnb19QO7FlNz+Ac9VqTsBs/j6a5nkfPicce0SD1llCJFl71G4IeLRCbpxdRq/59u t0QR+c9eZpQFGaO35a2Mqo5Maith8afvP2RucnVRgowRfutTuOfhlUv/2yqr4cqhNf 7Qa1npQijsuphI7+GQ0Je4Gup8HP4m3JfyRUPAMW7Uc2HjARnhhkNVfu79p0ZVleqi Mr0Q2utJY6lIg== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4DcBcq4x0qz9rxK; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 23:48:43 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:15:06 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127828 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gregory Heytings writes: >>> No, with one control key you have all characters (not just letters, >>> also digits and symbols), plus all C-something, plus all >>> M-something, plus C-M-something. With one control key and its >>> corrsponding meta key you multiply that number by two. >> >> Ah ok, I get what you mean. Does it really make that much of a >> difference? I'm not sure how many packages you are expecting would >> add default bindings (or how conflict resolution should happen), but >> do you really need more than 26? >> > > That reminds me the famous "640 kb should be enough for anyone" ;-) > Indeed, 26 letters is not enough. Magit has three global commands,=20 > Org-mode has three, and Bookmark+ has three keymaps. With just three > packages you've already used 35% of the available keys. I hope you=20 > understand that it can't be a long-term solution. Moreover, AFAIU, > packages cannot automatically bind their commands to C-c LETTER keys=20 > anyway: these keys are strictly reserved for users in their personal > configuration files. I think that's the pessimistic way to look at it, the optimistic one would be to say that you only need 35% of the key-space. I don't have a feeling for how many global keys people bind by default, one would have to study public configurations to find out. But I still remain sceptical that -- compared to memory usage -- that need for keys is rising that much. >> I only know of Magit that does it, and as I have said before, I >> think it is a mistake and unfriendly. But that still doesn't answer >> the question. Why do you think that users expect it -- not the image >> that magit has it it's users. >> > > Being a programmer, I can understand your viewpoint. As a user I > can't. With M-x load-theme , the user interface changes. Well I install a package with M-x package-install, right? Not M-x package-init or M-x package-load. When I install a program via my package manager, I don't expect it to start immediately. It is just expected that it is ready. And package-install does just that, and I hope it is not just me, but that's what I would guess a command named "package install" would do. > What makes keybindings so different from user interface colors that > they should absolutely not be touched when a package is loaded, say > with M-x global-foobar-mode, and require an explicit manual > configuration by the user? A theme doesn't activate when it is installed or loaded, but when it is activated. In the same way, I argue, a command shouldn't bind itself until it is bound. Note that I don't insist that this has to be done by editing your init.el (as shown in the patch from a few messages before). I just think that loading a feature/package should attempt to just load the package, without changing the UI/UX of the system. > Do you also think it's a mistake and unfriendly if a package installs > a menu item? If not, what makes keybindings fundamentally different > from menu items? Do you mean a menu-bar-mode item? Yes, loading a package still shouldn't change anything, activating a mode should add the menu item, so that it is clear to the user what caused the change, and how it can be reversed. =2D-=20 Philip K. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCAAdFiEEbW+YL3e0aNnYosjIGB9bla4wszYFAmAltEoACgkQGB9bla4w szZp+gv/VBfgklcl/cIKXaoMx4KJI4Ns5KbD5wa0PCRchWFRrFTnjUPFUpoK4gQN gFJMW7QUMQOjILgsEu37IbGaUZQn2a2RK4l6K2hS7faCHu+RcKGMCjx41Wd52INs 2E+uJmFPBtS7CtLAU+D0X92xZO5lWoCxPY2kkvarkkI/t8UrjKTWGNirNWW3hHx+ e1vi4JHEm78AisuAMOW7TGjrKqjE0uOH1m8I7XbqScNuHcf7zbi986NmGS2B8eew AlufBS0NvlS9fv3NXw2Y90YAcJ88GCGZ65DtC6Gcpgr0hFmn0rxHVLr+82MQNnAf HESDJiYzhLOlwuQHe1DayZWti5AqQujcSzdGVipDIcRERcS8WFqQybVkLu8Ivrn9 V+TQe/gpncwketds5Md9NHD6nAzVhNlXBEc2QxIFUnzlxf6tBr5jo3kfaruvmYrC q+GGFafK2tCFQrCHHrQy4Sb/Ff9rKEYVRYDp5WRmtML49fWTOAzyv62ZgcoQnTkV oOK4VN3D =l1nG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--