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(was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 00:30:25 +0100 Message-ID: <87lf3dzlny.fsf@gmail.com> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <874ka5gsqa.fsf@gnus.org> <25d8d72022b571db5291@heytings.org> <87h7e2xsl5.fsf@gmail.com> <25d8d72022e1ea7ed022@heytings.org> <87h7e2jjzy.fsf@logand.com> <87bl4ajg0c.fsf@logand.com> <877deyjc5e.fsf@logand.com> <87tui2yruj.fsf@gmail.com> <874ka2j68n.fsf@logand.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30330"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel To: Tomas Hlavaty Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 01 01:32:17 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mW5XF-0007ev-L6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 01:32:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44108 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mW5XD-0007Ai-F7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:32:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60022) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mW5VW-0006QD-Vv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:30:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]:39858) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mW5VV-00027U-6P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:30:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id d26so12607374wrb.6 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:30:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v7q6t6oWT/NKpKVJS1ycTv8u8g7gfTC5AxIsgemIaAQ=; b=foMkX3XBa7Mf+ktw9z82b6/jkdLCnV2xxKt1F14Lg/RTDYU+qVWCFMmWr9oi+OOtcV n4bObQfXS3REGWhiVJrrHhgq+wzH8bwUpTclt8Fz3BvmcBM1TVKVXbIkFElNQC9+FNPw cj9d5JzlzYXIzFMjIAn4tqTJLVS/Qy7jq1TkXAmN+hqno8WssJRo7/zmTCdvv70V+E9a /TQjyJ8TiS+t76e9dz4TIADyyZ5LshSarnRmUsk8nwLyO+ip8IgKjm4R1B487SAceuHQ KdgK1A3YWugr1KtYNmBl9hOq2noJBGbAyJCUKJkiAZyUghdMg5hXRNdPerxJF+vhHE9S jz1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v7q6t6oWT/NKpKVJS1ycTv8u8g7gfTC5AxIsgemIaAQ=; b=lq8viyhJuffw5NIlz8nym/YQJqEvMETZiNAIQY/1/c4/fis4M9wTGcFS2zf3OtfQpH mTze3JSuKYK8vSqmDV6sECsP8y/II+LkfvA7TKlw9JYbySywEjKpw1ICa2nBvx0Z20nF wyYfvApPICWcoh/wvtotyEBOGgQ9aXd7zBgqzR5C+B0PCVWtmXjsK6qfUBgke9b9v+B0 7M83wWUDAlyop5CLMXeGHcBu+OOi//1spLYca9T0f3db87g73ZOuW/CEF0RaYV2zOQTe H5cLXS03NbRoP8Ca4qjTLqVqYpBffWyasyj4Atjr6y5afM/8He5ANhAqjd+PdQZXc2Tq 1AIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oZKdngmKtHOUEOTRN7On1I8urtYqYcPZivgLdXaXI7NyFSgeD 4NCJU/8I3JIV2b1kAC7jMr+NeihbRMM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4aS2M3vGIu4TdHV4QhEbfD4TtgPT7z1AFkmlOc8+ojuDmsWvA2L8v5pREHIncGF+WbLhX2w== X-Received: by 2002:adf:dd49:: with SMTP id u9mr9130007wrm.341.1633044626835; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from krug ([87.196.156.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l26sm6023204wmi.25.2021.09.30.16.30.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:30:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <874ka2j68n.fsf@logand.com> (Tomas Hlavaty's message of "Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:58:00 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42b; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275936 Archived-At: Tomas Hlavaty writes: >>> It is not a choice between one or the other. I need both. Please do >>> not break grep and web search. >> >> I explained how they are already "broken". In CL (the topic of this >> particular subthread), by packages and in every language that has any >> type of indirection. I'm saying they were never really "good" to begin >> with, not if you want to use the full available power in those >> languages. > > Neither of the two options are perfect. > As I said, I need both to work as well as possible. Right. But it's a trade-off between language expressive power (the power to express more in less characters) and repetition and verbosity. That does give the power of locality and enables things as grep (though they're always flawed as we've seen), but it comes at the expense of hard and brittle couplings. >From your arguments, it seems you don't like namespace features in languages. That strikes me, personally, as odd, from a Common Lisp programmer as you present yourself, but I respect it. "Proper" namespaces have been proposed numerous times for Emacs, and people can and do get around the practical problems with numerous strategies. The most prominent of which happened some years ago with the creation of very popular libraries with very short suffixes: s.el, dash.el and f.el all above the 99.9 downloads percentile in MELPA. But that is by no means the only one: people will use macros and "break grep" happily with something simple and innocent as flet or labels or putting anonymous functions in local variables, because in Emacs, interning a symbol is a big responsibility. All these things I consider worse, even just from a grep-lover perspective, than criterious use of namespacing. As with any language feature, use it wisely. Jo=C3=A3o