From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:18:24 +0200 Message-ID: <87k4p0dyjz.fsf@telefonica.net> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278980327 8106 80.91.229.12 (13 Jul 2010 00:18:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:18:47 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 13 02:18:46 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYTCv-0003iq-Mp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:18:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44091 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYTCu-0002rl-UL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:18:44 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=35477 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYTCo-0002rg-Qg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:18:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYTCn-0008BY-W1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:18:38 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:33349) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYTCn-0008BI-MX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:18:37 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYTCj-0003gs-Sv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:18:33 +0200 Original-Received: from 83.42.13.171 ([83.42.13.171]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:18:33 +0200 Original-Received: from ofv by 83.42.13.171 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:18:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 40 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 83.42.13.171 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:TDl/4e0VUkGhUFqEF8S9w3gHBb4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127131 Archived-At: "Alfred M. Szmidt" writes: > You are conflating two separate issue, one of terminology, and one of > non-working features, so are many people in this thread. Not really. The terminology is just a small part of the whole issue, which is the kind of people Emacs development should target. Here on the Bikeshedding Paradise (a.k.a. emacs-devel) it is understandable that people tend to see this as a debate on terminology and ignore the really important issue, but let's try to not do that. [snip] > Regarding features, this is infact what people are having problems > with, like yourself and _not_ about terminology. The most basic > prerequisite for any feature is that it should work without any > configuration, one shouldn't have to define what a tetromino is to > play tetris even though your tetromino might be different from mine. I'm glad you think like this. I have the impression that some prominent hackers here think that it is a good thing and a show of distinction to produce systems that require reading a manual and do quite a bit of tinkering before usage. This is a symptom of the hacker's limitations, of course. He implicitly acknowledges that designing the system on a way that does not require that burden from the user was too much for him (there is no derogatory intention towards any Emacs hacker here) > In your case, CEDET not working out of the box, and being hard to > configure on top of that. This is a bug, could you file a bug report > so that the problem can be looked at? If people don't report problems > they experience, then they won't be known. I'm afraid that the problem was on the third party Elisp package that provided C# support to CEDET. It required tweaks here and there to make compile with the CEDET that is distributed with Emacs, lacked detailed instructions and smelled like unmaintained since a few years ago. Again, this is not the real issue. The lesson here is that Emacs can learn a lot from other projects wrt how to behave towards its potential audience.