From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: moving more cl seq/mapping support into core Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:20:44 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87k4lvekyb.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <4CAA0FFC.5020809@gmail.com> <87ocb7927h.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1286356878 19952 80.91.229.12 (6 Oct 2010 09:21:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:21:18 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 06 11:21:17 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1P3QBY-0005HB-Lh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:21:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56754 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P3QBX-0004VB-Il for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 05:21:15 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=38671 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P3QBO-0004Tz-BK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 05:21:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P3QBM-0003Qe-RU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 05:21:06 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:49639) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P3QBM-0003QK-Go for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 05:21:04 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1P3QBF-0005Bp-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:20:57 +0200 Original-Received: from p508ed06e.dip.t-dialin.net ([80.142.208.110]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:20:57 +0200 Original-Received: from dak by p508ed06e.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:20:57 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 33 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p508ed06e.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ehAQV5G03XmnashpNwPjzwSC7f8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:131391 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > > > The fact that many programmers use cl.el is not conclusive. Those > > programmers won't use cl names for anything else -- others might. > > XEmacs has been dumping cl for at least a decade, with no complaints I > can recall. FWIW YMMV My main complaint is that I usually try fixing comprehension problems by reading the source. cl's existing DOC strings are often semiobfuscate, requiring a certain degree of "common Lisp" thinkage in order to make sense of. The cl code itself is more or less completely inscrutable. Partly because of its nature of macro expansion, partly because of coding techniques/styles and internals that are neither explained with code comments nor self-explaining. It does not tie in nicely with Emacs Lisp and promotes a programming style that does not map straightforwardly to the Lisp machine and makes debugging and streamlining haphazard. My personal gut feeling would be to _first_ give Emacs well-working lexical binding. Then more or less reimplement cl from scratch. If things like keyword parsing would profit from supporting C functions, create those functions instead of fiddling with macros all around. Make sure that the bytecode has everything to support cl sanely rather than as a clever afterthought. -- David Kastrup