From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs Mini Manual (PART 3) - CUSTOMIZING AND EXTENDING EMACS Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 17:09:49 +0200 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <87k37nzy2q.fsf@debian.uxu> References: <5eaf0440-3124-4d89-bd20-ddada9a3db12@googlegroups.com> <87r425qi4t.fsf@debian.uxu> <619ae998-2ce5-428d-bec7-a654427b81d0@googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1404832229 32365 80.91.229.3 (8 Jul 2014 15:10:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 15:10:29 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 08 17:10:23 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1X4X2E-0005aU-DL for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 17:10:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56113 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X4X2D-00087h-UZ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:10:21 -0400 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!194.109.133.81.MISMATCH!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed2.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!news.stack.nl!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 106 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: SIvZRMPqRkkTHAHL6NkRuw.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:krH1VBVBcJduSVTo1sUIWYV2Tpg= Mail-Copies-To: never Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:206312 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:98581 Archived-At: solidius4747@gmail.com writes: > As I stated in Part 1 in "Why I wrote this guide" > section, it is because I feel the Emacs manual is > designed to be more like a reference material than a > beginner material. I only have a very old version of the manual - Emacs 18, I think - but I read that twice. It wasn't difficult to understand but I noticed there were gaps in it when I compared how I used Emacs. There was no mention of Gnus and I don't remember if RMAIL was mentioned, for example, but there were material on the message-mode, perhaps to be used between Unix boxes on an intranet (?) - of course, if those things weren't around then, they couldn't have been included - but as for being a reference, I don't remember it being too difficult to digest, on the contrary I remember it being pleasant to read (big sheets, wide margins, clear and normal language, and so on). > It also does not mention about popular 3rd party > packages, and popular package archives like MELPA. It is not only the manual who is quiet about MELPA. I didn't know of it until recently, when I learned about it - ironically - on gnu.emacs.sources. In this book @Book{cameron, author = {Cameron and Elliot and Loy and Raymond and Rosenblatt}, title = {Learning GNU Emacs}, publisher = {O'Reilly}, year = 2004, ISBN = {0-596-00648-9}, edition = {3rd edition}} there is a very short chapter on packages and online, unofficial repositories, but it doesn't say how to use it and it doesn't mention MELPA or even ELPA. So, all the more reason (in my mind) for you to mention it in more detail, or at least to provide a reference to "how to broadcast" as that is as vital a part as is downloading/installing. It just seems clear to me. > Where should new users to Emacs find this > information? They will have to waste time to > rediscover packages that people used long ago. Right, that's always the case. However, just knowing about MELPA won't have people discovering what they want instantly. Of course, first they must know what they want, which always takes time, and is natural and nothing that we should (could) influence (to any extent anyway). But the second part is: finding what they want. So how do you search MELPA? And how do you know what to search for, if you terminology is different from the person who wrote the package? Great things to discuss here, as well as to include... > I want to get productive with Emacs as fast as > possible. Everything in time... > Telling people to read the whole Emacs Lisp manual > before able to customizing/extending Emacs is likely > to push them away from Emacs. We should of course never tell anyone to read the manual, and especially not the whole Elisp manual :) We can post URLs. Best way is for course to do that, but also explain how it relates to the particular problem, and even support example Elisp. But sometimes there isn't the energy, time or will to do that, and then a HTTP manual in small chapters is great so you at least can give the URL. > As for submitting code to MELPA, I don't think it's > necessary to include in the guide, because clearly > the targeted audience is beginners who just start > their journey with customizing/extending Emacs. It's > unlikely they will roll a package on their own after > finishing the guide anyway. Well, I disagree here. First, the beginners will use your tutorial, yes, but that's not it. They will also write Elisp and configure Emacs and use Emacs and the online help. They are likely to also come across the Emacs manual, the Elisp manual, perhaps even the Gnus manual, and of course the EmacsWiki if they happen to Google problems (very likely). You yourself said MELPA didn't get enough attention (and I agree), so if the readers come across it in your book, at some point they will ask - "how do I use MELPA in a more advanced way: searching, filtering, submitting?" - at that point, if the readers first came across it in your book, they will instinctively reach for that book. If they read about it somewhere else, they'll go for that source, of course. But we (you) cannot influence that, can be? Better make your own source as complete as possible. -- underground experts united