From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Elisp terminology Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:49:26 +0100 Message-ID: <87k30b42c9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <87r3ukub8u.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1422179385 23430 80.91.229.3 (25 Jan 2015 09:49:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 09:49:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Stephen J. Turnbull" , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Kelly Dean Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 25 10:49:45 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YFJpA-0008HC-GL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:49:44 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37244 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFJp9-0001HZ-Kd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 04:49:43 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42468) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFJow-0001HI-Ta for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 04:49:31 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFJov-0005gv-VI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 04:49:30 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:52386) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFJov-0005ge-SZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 04:49:29 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59562 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFJos-0000UJ-QN; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 04:49:27 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4C21EDF31C; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:49:26 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Kelly Dean's message of "Sat, 24 Jan 2015 23:30:11 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:181743 Archived-At: Kelly Dean writes: > Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: >>> will need to understand or modify, so using a technical >>> abbreviation isn't a problem. Emacs already has abbreviated names >>> such as =E2=8C=9Cfboundp=E2=8C=9D and =E2=8C=9Cfmakunbound=E2=8C=9D for= programmer-only things, >>> instead of =E2=8C=9Cfunction-bound-predicate=E2=8C=9D and =E2=8C=9Cfunc= tion-make-unbound=E2=8C=9D. >> >> And the recent trend is to deprecate such ancient usage, including the >> venerable `car', `cdr', and `cons'. > > Look what happened when I proposed changing the names of set-default, > setq-default, and default-value. They're misleading, No, they aren't, but you are not willing to hear any explanation in conflict with your preconceptions. > but you and Eli say they're too old to change. IOW, bugs with > seniority are features. > > The names of car and cdr are even older. And they're not misleading; > they're just archaic. I have my problems seeing how "Contents of address register" and "Contents of decrement register" are accurate concerning the current implementations. In their _archaic_ sense, those terms are not accurate. It's just that they have grown into terms of their own. > There's both less need and less ability to change them than there is > to change the former three. In contrast to car/cdr however, the _default_ value is still an accurate description. > And yes, the abbreviations =E2=8C=9Ccons=E2=8C=9D, =E2=8C=9Cfboundp=E2=8C= =9D, and =E2=8C=9Cfmakunbound=E2=8C=9D are > old, but they're neither misleading nor archaic. fboundp is sort of an archaic feature of the language. Lisp symbols have 4 slots by default: value, function value, property list, name. In Scheme, symbols don't have any slot. They are semantically the same as keywords, just being an internment of their name. That makes it possible to implement a module system establishing the relation between symbols and values in the _global_ lexical space. > I'm a good benchmark, since I'm easily fooled by misleading names and > I have bad memory, yet these names don't cause me problems. The problem is that you consider yourself the only benchmark, not just for the naming but also for the meaning and implementation of terms. That's not unusual for programmers, which is why there are regularly scheduled shouting events under the title of "standards committee". With regard to Emacs Lisp, we don't have such official events. --=20 David Kastrup