From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:21:40 +0800 Message-ID: <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="34327"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= , Richard Stallman , Ahmed Khanzada , "joseph.h.garvin@gmail.com" , "stefan@marxist.se" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" , "eliz@gnu.org" , "drew.adams@oracle.com" To: ndame Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 10:22:21 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ5DZ-0008pH-Gi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:22:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39136 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ5DY-0002B4-Jz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:22:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54422) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ5D5-0001kY-Qx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:21:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ5D5-0006SL-CO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:21:51 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic304-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.146]:45225) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ5D4-0006Ov-Uk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:21:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587284509; bh=VM+UbziXKKSxvNfw41lLESuLMJhLVZar/9JyWURqOow=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=FmwSKDsbDH/Y2lzt8BLYacAuq7HK5zUHVjLgYLzjVIydMBqEeIhUmjtg1ZzUQPQKUz9hCcwDe6j2Tsbh8Y4fBD6O2hlf9ckXBgMCpvIT1DmOpBNLOESIrXXPjq2uYEFj4fhiaueGFlGr46jfof4I0V/FTcZT64vu/gH8v/X5qRapk+/SKzE0ORYP6DVzMlUQa5bv7CSJ4DQRlyXBwdORnJBGqsqJeIGZezeC2aKVWcpWsOFSJN+ArfUY0B9rXK5KuHjLNjzru2SkyS6MrbXYaPErt/BETWVZbQ9tgrFDwrZBMq2k14C3Upv8LdmWQ0syKbQ2EKgLSZSrYrTZhImrtg== X-YMail-OSG: CC_BzekVM1l2pwrnTJSHfGyHDG9x49Nngv.YMDbXRYIKprvSI8jIn.z6t0SuNjc 2dCFPsGoDBhI8rDiQsi7rrszElyRS0bMKVNw3l7fEmIEv7Bz8xqSnSSmkcrXK5XtkskRk_Ei2CP1 Ed8mpwFZd4yLsans7NbLFq7zVB94HQ5xxP6Lyk1wc1A50Qzn1ErXRGTBN1PxFiPu5ofhv_hlotg8 WXsFA2L.GX5Efme7M1v0bHtawitViTkhoJ8PJB6VOujJtQdQwPIdsZEJj.qXPqLPhF4E1x3wCXcX EsUDlBu09IWE0FTT1lt1fBD6eBLXFdYd0A6z8ISqtDRRIGtPb9gkHZ0fTb.HOdG2HFfC398MViCK Jf9mo69yXT5qsas9iqzbr62KH8hMMa4sTI0oQrfMtE9ejlrIwlZIYLGWeKe5mjK0BRXhw7Xh0qRl k4Y6sO5M62XgsAU9DJYasfmr5VmNr8znd78fe10IcSBxjAcGz88JNEVrPSKN7Xjlf_mY1lGUNWj1 oSiw2Y6y31i5Hnz2_GDj6yfey75cbj0MDn4SHU3ILkF0bYyupfCK.aNeY.2_k2VpjkTXPXLBAq6H 8aeMVtNk44VSh8VMoJMNtbvHNo5fDOTAWSsL0BSluEpyfupQ8EkkrBRKhkuc8_GnHL_i5SXWCLR9 W_vSO718d4xil2.Ke4fvH3Raw1nSmdPw1XGbnZEY_IBT6ILasg4e7gtntPM5kP0kCCerBuEH3cEY 6BiB8slS4Etu9dgB_xfyiDjvG31ScVEYOUY_1jHoCONDGgkBo_83JtkHW.zWcxcvu0AfXyNSQ_K4 YOF5NCCE3ydm71v9EnDLeRjS_.nc22Z4HClYsNU3qq Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:21:49 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp410.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f91318a8bd968baf424b01f78237417b; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:21:43 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (ndame@protonmail.com's message of "Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:12:20 +0000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.146; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic304-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.191.146 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247301 Archived-At: ndame writes: > Yes, these changes should be clearly marked in NEWS, so those who don't want > them, can revert them. Massive features that drastically change behaviour should be off by default. Stability over users. What's wrong with a button on the fancy splash screen? > Out of the box Emacs should be instantly usable for newcomers and older users > could adapt for the sake of Emacs. I wouldn't mind adding a line to my .emacs to > turn something off which I don't need, but which can make the life of new > users easier. You can't turn massive changes off by adding "one line to my .emacs". You can however turn them on by adding a button to the splash screen. Emacs cannot and will never be usable out-of-the-box for 100% of all usecases. You can however make it easier for people to start, and again that's when the "button on splash screen" approach comes in. > For example, CUA mode could be on by default. I would turn it off, but it could > make the life of new users easier if they didn't have to turn it on explicitly > and they could use their copy/paste keys from the start like they are used it to > in other tools. That mentality would lead to an unacceptable maintainence burden for a lot of people. Again: what's wrong with putting a button on the splash screen?