From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Phillip Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do pretests reach end users? Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2020 22:15:56 +0100 Message-ID: <87k0zhd5o3.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <28BB39D5-074F-4450-A747-C2BFB37AA482@gnu.org> <87pn9g6fuo.fsf@gmail.com> <83bll0ze1x.fsf@gnu.org> <1rlt4e65.dag@gnui.org> <83blkxw22x.fsf@gnu.org> <7dvk9ibd.dag@gnui.org> <878sfzfsbz.fsf@russet.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6700"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , liwei.ma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, kevin.legouguec@gmail.com To: Dmitry Alexandrov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 05 23:17:07 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jsC0Z-0001cX-6N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 05 Jul 2020 23:17:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54618 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jsC0Y-0005o5-6L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 05 Jul 2020 17:17:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55692) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jsBzY-0005ND-A0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jul 2020 17:16:04 -0400 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([78.129.138.110]:39572) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jsBzU-0005gQ-Tn; Sun, 05 Jul 2020 17:16:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=XCZFXyJ2BCT/XjahE3TlzXNyNH7fItGQv1ldLew8a8k=; b=lgQfmka/Scww5bEejcBlDv3lng zFM5GVhC6py0AYVdZxcF19vI4WcGpW+QBRyqWayb3r7KRVjzP+OTBnp7eFVnJ7x4yrAc69QMILzbG /dAd1fexdaG5kGia7E7DTMAT9PuaR0mTklonQyAGAPyRmIf6B0WDoSUZWPE9vtizT/L5AmDdaXxYx s0ZZZyjz2yDop7UMLJESHEUTNzNXn4svR54wb8L/lUdqxJT7ygzs3cxcNvWVD0q21e8jW6CL/qMTK L3mcmyOFLZG4EgZvuWjlJ++zWY28txT5jVO4OGG148RnnQ/2jhRLgvP0amuVY5Pbq2T6uEPUo3oH9 H4wowuRQ==; Original-Received: from cpc142652-benw12-2-0-cust953.16-2.cable.virginm.net ([82.21.43.186]:50308 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jsBzR-0006QM-PA; Sun, 05 Jul 2020 22:15:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Alexandrov's message of "Sun, 05 Jul 2020 07:23:49 +0300") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk Received-SPF: none client-ip=78.129.138.110; envelope-from=phillip.lord@russet.org.uk; helo=cloud103.planethippo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/07/05 17:04:45 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:252717 Archived-At: Dmitry Alexandrov writes: > Phillip Lord wrote: >>> https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/windows/emacs-27/emacs-27.0.91-= x86_64-installer.exe >> >> Yes, I release this (in a rather erratic fashion) as well as Emacs-28 sn= apshots > > My gratitude for that (though I never happened to use them). No worries. I don't happen to use them either! >> To be honest, I suspect GNU/Linux gets more people testing it, >> because the users of that platform are more likely to test >> things. It's also relatively easy to build there -- once you have it >> set up "git pull;make -j" and run from in source rather than >> installing and you are done. > > Sure. That=CA=BCs exactly why I supposed, that hardly anyone use the > pretests as @eliz@gnu.org explained them: people are either on > whatever their distro ships or build from master. I wouldn't be so sure about that actually. I build form the release branch most of the time; I am currently using a Emacs-27 build as my main one. I'll move to Emacs-28 at some point during the Emacs-27 release cycle. >>>> So I don't see how all this could help making a release faster. >>> >>> It can help persuade people in charge (such as you :-) to take >>> advantage of the control over GNU distributors they have =E2=80=94 and >>> shorten the release cycle. >> >> I think this is a secondary argument. It would be good to have >> pre-releases (and snapshots) available to install because it is a >> good thing in itself. > > Indeed. There is zero hope for major distros to ships nightly > snapshots, though. So until Emacs cycle is completely revamped only > pretests and release candidates are in question. Over all, I think that this would not be a good thing. You want Emacs to be relatively stable out there, and only people with an interest to install the pre-release or snapshots. Ubuntu has PPAs for exactly this purpose. The counter argument is MELPA, of course. The statistics show that most MELPA users are quite happy and don't both with MELPA stable, but move along on the bleeding edge of what ever packages they are using. >> If it shortens the release cycle that is a bonus. > > Shorting the release cycle is a _mean_ to achieve that =E2=80=94 that was= my point. > > To recap: maintainers are unanimously unwilling to package a piece of > software labelled =E2=80=98pretest=E2=80=99, that should be downloaded fr= om a server > named =E2=80=98alpha=E2=80=99. You can either (a) persuade all of them, = that this is > not what it means, but actually a pretty stable thing for the year > 2020, or (b) simply stop calling it =E2=80=98pretest=E2=80=99: the final = result is > identical. I can see this. If we just had a shorter release cycle (especially a minor release cycle), then a less stable Emacs might be less a worry, since a new release would be just around the corner. Emacs bugs can be annoying, but they generally do not break other things. Phil