From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Turning on savehist-mode by default Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 21:42:51 +0000 Message-ID: <87jzqeybz8.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87wmufm7r7.fsf@catern.com> <87edgmq601.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12344"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "sbaugh@catern.com" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 18 22:43:45 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r4T6P-00031N-B6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:43:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4T5e-0003Ae-T0; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 16:42:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4T5d-0003AK-Uo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 16:42:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4T5b-0003ob-1i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 16:42:57 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DF40240028 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:42:52 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1700343772; bh=WdXTwyRMRiSeFLdlBJknJIX84BVcf00nWGZ3Nypuc8A=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=F7IOq7DLKzKS4A28GslZWmEY60xVR3uiCkvLOI/tHxoilu3gXkynBRFGYbfUCTshw npE11UQ/5ci4Ge8q2VF9k+CdNVSM7fNn90oG+a1cXSSoJNOTPgvRusB01QnHAQvF9a RkfgVZhAUs4NkSEl6SKO8Pm7qqDfhb3TOVDV6ClglCqZQDj4pX5EIAbG0l5PYTQoq4 Iavfc+R7EDUH1wP/w3+XV8pgF9oxTVAwwvUm+md+AX/ZUmQQlG6k0TaIm/xgGLbdHm 2k6WbACoXSkPz6lRjpMK9eklpIkeKS5lb9MTiFdjFlJaDwvPKA67+UlRUzXK4GguPT ExxXOzs7v/J/A== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4SXnLg4Q8Jz6trs; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:42:51 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 18 Nov 2023 21:06:24 +0000") X-Hashcash: 1:20:231118:drew.adams@oracle.com::vQKAWvg9ViUSMjnu:0kD9 X-Hashcash: 1:20:231118:emacs-devel@gnu.org::MhvblmELBtO3IEhK:36Iq X-Hashcash: 1:20:231118:sbaugh@catern.com::PoTQaSrENmNXeKsf:3lxd Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312936 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: >> > There are a zillion minor modes that many >> > users find useful to turn on by default. >> > It doesn't follow that `emacs -Q' should >> > turn on any of them by default. >> >> If something is done by (practically) everyone, > > Is it? Given that my sentence was a hypothetical, I cannot answer this question since the term "something" cannot be unambiguously instantiated as to be answered concretely. >> especially when it is something that (practically) >> all beginners would be interested in, > > How is that known? It is not known, otherwise there wouldn't really be a discussion. Our knowledge can only approximate reality through experience and talking with different kinds of Emacs users. Taking the example of savehist-mode, then my experience, which takes different kinds of users, of different experience levels, people I have met online and in-person, appears to indicate that this is a popular and useful feature. >> I wouldn't dismiss the proposal to enable it by default. > > I don't dismiss it. So you don't oppose enabling savehist-mode by default? >> The issue is that beginners neither know how to do it, nor >> what all the options are that they might be interested in. > > And yet it's "done by (practically) everyone"? Let us say, "(practically) everyone" who manages to stay along, by finding the right options to create a comfortable and productive environment for themselves. There are certainly many beginners that never change this user option; but I suspect that these are also the ones that never get to taking a look at any user options, because they give up too soon. > ___ > > Let's enable `delete-selection-mode' by default. > > It took decades to get `transient-mark-mode' ON > by default. `delete-selection-mode' completes > that job. It welcomes new users with the same > type-to-replace behavior they're used to outside > Emacs (everywhere). > > Persists nothing. Is easy for anyone not who > doesn't want it ON to turn OFF. One has to keep in mind that there are a lot of people who use Emacs, and are familiar with the "feel" of the default key bindings or at least some subset of these, without having much of an understanding of how to do things or what is going on. These are users that should nevertheless be respected -- hence my point that enabling a feature has to take the workflow of people into account, for whom a change would break an expectation. Note that I am *not* saying that the goal should be to accommodate newcomers (following whatever current trends may be) at any cost, especially when this comes at the expense of long-term users. To make this argument with savehist-mode, one would have to make the use-case believable, that someone expects the history of mini-buffer input to not persist between sessions. I think that is a claim that it a lot harder to justify, than that inserting a key while a selection is active, replaces the selection. -- Philip Kaludercic