From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Efforts to attract more users? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:21:39 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87iq4l860c.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <871vb9k0ob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wrt1i1qt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278922923 2502 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2010 08:22:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:22:03 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 12 10:21:59 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYEH1-0001WK-1r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:21:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57558 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYEH0-000459-98 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:21:58 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=56510 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYEGu-00044u-DD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:21:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYEGt-0004rc-9D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:21:52 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:58384) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYEGs-0004rQ-V7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:21:51 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYEGq-0001Tp-Pn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:21:48 +0200 Original-Received: from p508ecb63.dip.t-dialin.net ([80.142.203.99]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:21:48 +0200 Original-Received: from dak by p508ecb63.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:21:48 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 42 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p508ecb63.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:5e+f1eOg8ygpf5QT5a6pQnhHE1w= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127091 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > > Well, there were a couple times when I was in contact with him (I > > mean, I was really trying to help him get some code into Emacs), > > I don't know what it feels like to mentor Lennart, personally. I do > know what it feels like to try to get code into Emacs, *and I won't > try it again*. Well, I find it an awful pain to get non-trivial code into pretty much any large project. Problem is that the committer needs to feel comfortable about it, or it becomes Somebody Else's Problem (tm). And the typical committer is quite more likely to feel comfortable about his own code than about third-party code of similar code and documentation quality. Which does not serve to improve the mood of non-committing contributors. Now excellent coding skills and excellent social skills are not necessarily positively correlated. For me, the consequences are that I try to get commit access as soon as possible. Not because I deem my contributions are of better quality than that of others without commit access, but since the alternatives are so much more wasteful regarding everybody's time and nerves. AFAIK, however, Lennart _does_ have commit access and the skills to understand and heed others' suggestions, but is lacking time and motivation to follow through. That's a pity, but it won't become less of a pity by fingerpointing. I don't see how social and technical structures could be amended to create a better environment for getting the integration work done. Things work as good as they can, given the current "human resources". The results are not good enough, but it would not appear that anybody has an idea how to change this without waving a magical wand that changes what we have to work with. -- David Kastrup