From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Google modules integration Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:38:09 +0900 Message-ID: <87iq2c262m.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <878w3a1x9s.fsf@keller.adm.naquadah.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1284183862 22725 80.91.229.12 (11 Sep 2010 05:44:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 05:44:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Julien Danjou , emacs-devel@gnu.org, carsten.dominik@gmail.com To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 11 07:44:18 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OuIss-0005mE-8L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 07:44:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43741 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OuIsr-0002Aq-Jq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 01:44:17 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58154 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OuIsi-00029S-28 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 01:44:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OuIsg-00062I-RL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 01:44:07 -0400 Original-Received: from imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.254.161]:59560) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OuIsg-00062A-8Y; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 01:44:06 -0400 Original-Received: from imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp (imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2ACF4003; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:44:04 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mgmt1.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (unknown [130.158.97.223]) by imss12.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604C6F4002; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:44:04 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt1.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9503FA0477; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:44:04 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8EA9C1A266F; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:38:09 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta29) "garbanzo" ed3b274cc037 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:129950 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > We should recommend that people not give Google Maps specific > addresses. Huh? That's very close to recommending not to use the service! For example, in Japan, a difference of even 100 meters frequently means a completely different route because "you can't get there from here" (without going back to where you started). The same is true if traveling by car where there are many one-way streets, etc. If you really want to encourage people to use these services in a way that is compatible with freedom, you need to be more specific about what the dangers are, and provide recommendations that give users as much of what they want as possible. Anything less is grandstanding, and harmful to freedom. E.g., if the addresses are public knowledge anyway (eg, the location of the FSF offices), what's the harm? Perhaps "not give personal addresses" is what you mean. > Open Street Map is a good thing, and we should encourage people to > use that by preference. This is grandstanding again. Sure, the choir will use it, but we came to call the sick, not the healthy, right? There is a big difference between free software and free information of this kind. Free software can, does, and has worked because proprietary software makes money by *prohibiting* a large part of the network externality available to software -- ie, the "many eyes" effect. Free software can take advantage of the many eyes, and in this way leverage network externalities. The map data, on the other hand, doesn't have this aspect anywhere near as strongly, since the calculations involved are "hard" (not really susceptible to tuning by J Random Hacker). Another problem is that each query is (close to) unique for a given user -- once they have the information, they don't need to get it again. They don't benefit much from "hacking on the information" (whatever that might mean ;-). So a proprietary service can capture most of the network externality and return part of that as a benefit to its users *without* risking its proprietary advantage. The bottom line is that unless one believes that free software is more important than anything else in one's life, one will use the higher quality service. And when the faction of "one" that uses Google vs. OSM is 90% or so, the network externalities are going to work very much in favor of Google. So you're going to need more than such a recommendation ... unless you want to invite another "open source movement" debacle. The ideas that led to "open source" apply even more strongly here, and you know how effective they were in splitting the free software movement. Please don't allow that to happen again. Open-source-advocate-for-the-free-software-movement-ly y'rs,